Hell even tutrtling OH with reinforce bunkers and mortars will pose you problems. Dont tell me its fine that a callin (be it commando - lol vs OKW, or Croc) is the only supposed counter vs those strats.
but its fine that you can't counter brit emplacements as ostheer without callins? or croc? sry dude, but the only one being fanboyish atm are you. "axis op, buff brits" is literally everything you say. i just want a balanced game, but since you seem to be biased, that obviously constitutes fanboyism. if you reread my posts, i actually do say that the base arty is underperforming. but also: if it ever gets good, it's pretty much automatically overpowered in its current form. and people just use it wrong for the main part (on top of it being comparatively weak): don't expect it to kill anything, don't expect the enemy to outright retreat just because you threw some red smoke at him. use it as a "area denial" tool, because that's all it is. enemy has to move or risk getting actually hit (the damage of the shells is actually pretty decent, it's just the initial delay and delay inbetween shells thats a bit too high). |
why does has anything to go for a proper, reliable artillery unit? You dont even have to include new units, just make 25 pdr useful.
I dont get this logic of "USF doesnt have snipers, so brits dont need mobile mortar". Unlike USF brits are way better designed and allow for choices, whereas USF has a very binary gameplay. But still USF doesnt have issue in the artillery department, which brits have atm.
Just because it is like that now, doesnt mean this is the right design direction. USF still lacks a way to deal with MGs in T0 on small maps with garrisons. What you are implying is that this is fine because USF has a different strenght somewhere else, unrelated to the problem, e.g. vehicle crews.
Sorry but this is retarded game design approach. Every faction should have the tools to deal with any possible situation, without forcing you to deal with it in a single possible way. THis is why Wehr is great: you can deal with garrissons with a sniper or a mortar or flanking or teching to t2 flame HT. YOu have choices and this is great. Whereas as USF you have to research nades and flank - thats it.
And dont argument this shit with "assymetrical balance" - if one faction has ALL the tools to deal with something in different manners and you have a faction with only 1 counter to something, especially hidden behind a commander choice, which is super predictable - this isnt assymetrical balance, this is bullshit. Plain and simple.
Again: all what you said about how to counter an OKW defensive line is also possible as soviets. But you can also go the other way and just katyusha the shit out of it, and punish this strat very hard. Brits dont have this OPTION and this is my main gripe here.
first off: sniper isn't a "real" house clearing option since he misses at least 50% of the time. mortar works, but is somewhat unreliable in that you might get 2-3 models in one shot, or not kill any for like 5 shots straight. flamers work, but you suggest flame ht... t2 unit that costs 120 mun to upgrade, not even speaking about the mp and fuel costs. imho pio flames are the cheapest and most reliable way to clear houses. and i do think brits somewhat lack that, since they pretty much only have the wasp here.
apart from that... what does ostheer (non doctrinal stuff) have to deal with the croc for example? paks get oneshot by flames. Panthers are the only thing that even comes close to standing a chance, but in a 1v1 croc still usually wins because of higher HP. while i still believe that croc is too strong, i don't think it's because of the armor or the (still super high) hp, i think it's because the flames kill too quickly from too far away. paks are not a counter to the croc because of it... and they should be.
and again: if your enemy bunkers down in some part of the map, he's setting you up to win already, because you just cap everything else and try holding it till late game, where all your units are better.
or just give the brits mobile mortars... and ostheer gets commandos, usf gets kingtiger, okw can build all units out of all structures.... and so on.
as for brit commanders: some of them are pretty useless, which is in part due to the fact that the p2w commanders are so strong that they drown out the competition. once those p2w commanders have been brought into line (after relic brought in enough money with them), i think the other commanders will get buffs. until then you either buy those commanders and enjoy your free win if you make it to late game, or you're better off trying to play team games and hoping one of your mates is a brit with p2w commanders. (and i think THIS is were the design is fail: some commanders make the brits so retardedly strong that they're basically unbeatable late, while others make them so retardedly weak that they're almost auto-loss, not the lack of mobile mortar/viable artillery) |
You just don't get it, do you?
OKW is a disadvantaged faction as a whole that is why it needs such things as deployable trucks with all their benefits including settling outside base.
dont feed the trolls pls |
aha, so brits are "supposed" not to have good mobile arty for the sake of it? flawless balance approach you have. Let us make world in conflict out of 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 mb, where you have to pick soviet if you want good arty as allies?  You should be lead game designer at lelic dude.
Again please answer my question how to counter entrenched enemies in 2v2+ with a brit only team
brits don't have mobile mortars, usf and okw dont have snipers, ostheer doesnt have green cover or elite infantry (that is not behind a paywall). you can cry for "balance" all you want, but in the end, if mobile indirect fire like mortars are introduced to brits, something else has to go.
and you have multiple options to take out entreched enemies: air supremacy, croc (or churchills in general) commando drops, comet/firefly spam... you name it. all of the brits late game units are multiple times more (manpower) efficient than the units of the other factions. if the enemy tries to turtle early you've pretty much already won. |
I would say allow it. It adds excitement and reward for good or poor play. All players know the risk of getting an abandonment. Therefore if they decided to rush their vehicle into the enemy then that's their own choice. If your unit get's stolen then that is your fault and you should be punished for it.
while true, there's a difference between just losing your vehicle and basically gifting it to the enemy. still think its a bad mechanic. |
@cr4wler: what type of flawed logic is this?  So you are basically saying "hurr, brits have good late game tanks, so they dont need good arty, this is a soviet thing"? Really? What is your magical counter to heavily defended positions? Churchill croc rush against the pak wall?
How many games did you play as british? Pls play some teamgames vs ISG spam or 3v3 with Ost new Panzerwerfer and come back to this thread and tell us how brits DONT need good artillery. Please tell me again how you can counter panzerwerfe with the mortar pit 
The way you describe the 25 pdr as "Rather ineffective" is nowhere near how the unit performs in reality. its more like "Nowhere near effective", it does absolutely nothing.
Who cares if those guns are free if they do not do any job at all? They are useless for damaging defensive positions and also useless for area denial, mainly due to abysmal damage and huge scatter.
I would pay for 25pdr anyday, ressources and pop if you will, if it would even remotely mirror a useful arty unit, which it does not.
And dont tell me you have to leave it as it is because it is a base unit. Noone requested it to be a base unit, I would happiliy build it outside my base with RE for a cost, if it was useful.
every matchup plays out differently. us has to make due without snipers, ostheer has to make due without a t0/t1 vehicle or reliable early AT, us has to make due without super heavy tanks, okw has to specialise for AT or AI...
and brits have to make due without mobile indirect fire (for the most part).
brit base arty is not supposed to replace that. that arty is there to make the enemy move from whereever he is entrenched at the moment. it WON'T force the enemy to retreat outright, but it WILL force them to move.
Cause arty is the only weakness of brits...
just like every other faction has weaknesses. for brits its early game.
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wut? teller can destroy commandos glider? 
yep... dunno if a single teller is enough (i know for a fact that i also had an ostwind shooting at the glider beforehand), but it landed, slided into the teller, exploded -> no commandos. Kappa |
1. Every other faction has some sort of stock, mobile, artillery UNIT. I dont see why this shouldnt be the case with brits
2. you said it yourself. Only "viable" if you plan to dig in and even then it is easily countered by enemy artillery because you cannot reposition it.
3. This is soviet tech tree discussion all over again. The changes to their tech tree cheese were made for a reason. You either have artillery and anti tank or light vehicles and tanks, not both?
This is terrible design. Just because I want to play agressively doesnt mean that I shouldnt have the tools to deal with defensive enemies.
You cannot run over an OKW defensive line with brute force tank and infantry rushes, not against potent enemies and it certainly should NOT be the only viable tactic vs defensive enemies. Brits need arty to deal with it plain and simple
and you do have arty. ostheer doesnt get tiger and elefant and osttruppen and mortar ht and ... and ... and ... non doctrinal. if brits can get a t0 light vehicle, why doesn't ostheer get t0 paks or schrecks? "oh but you have fausts!" - yeah, if you're stupid enough to drive your bren into grens AND lose it afterwards because you sent it in unsupported, maybe you deserve to lose it. just like with emplacements etc. if you dont support it, you deserve to lose it. the base arty is, i admit, rather ineffective. but also inexpensive. and dropping that arty does force the enemy to reposition at the very least.
or, you know what... sure, you can get a mobile mortar... but instead you can't build centaur. or churchill.
every faction has some strengths and weaknesses. if you take away the weaknesses, you are left with only strengths... which is never good for balance.
edit: or, to pick up a recent thread: EVERY OTHER faction gets free green cover, why not ostheer?
i'm fairly certain that if you argue for brit indirect fire, you also argue against ostheer green cover. so whenever you ask yourself why brits don't have great non-doctrinal indirect fire, ask yourself why ostheer doesn't have green cover... same reason. |
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while i do agree that the british base arty is a bit underwhelming, i think it shouldn't be strong since it both non doctrinal and pretty much indestrucable. iirc it's pretty cheap too.
now as to why i think the indirect fire options of the ukf aren't as bad as brit players make them out to be:
1. doctrinal arty: you have offmap arty and onmap callin arty already.
2. mortar pits: if you want to play defensive with emplacements, you can get mortar pits which do a pretty decent job. brace nerf made them actually destructable, and not every faction/commander does have a ISG/Mortar HT available to them.
3. you didnt go for emplacements? great, that means you chose the offensive tree, why would you want indirect fire in the first place then? you are running around, capping the map, fighting favorable engagements, avoiding unfavorable ones. enemy dug in in front of his base, trying to cling on to like 1/4 or 1/3 of the map? now even the inaccurate arty becomes a whole lot better AND you already have most of the map anyway... you can just defend what you have and wait for late game, where you will crush pretty much everything he can throw at you.
every faction plays differently, thats why almost every person has a preference for one over another. If you try playing another factions using the same tactics despite them functioning completely different... maybe you deserve to lose a few games. how about you try playing what you think is so OP against brits and start crushing opponents if it is that easy? there's two possible outcomes: a) you crush everyone because what claimed is OP really is OP and you become the best there ever lived yadda yadda or b) you get beaten.
if b) happens, you now have a blueprint to beat what you were facing all along and claimed was so OP. |
Not to say they're totally useless, its still do-able. But they do have a massive disadvantage for the first 5-10 mins. If their opponent is smart.
....which is the whole point of the faction. weak early, strong late. at release they were pretty strong early and damn near unbeatable late (which is where a lot of those stats come from, a few days after release there were ONLY 90+% winrates in the top 10, admittedly smaller sample size).
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