I mean, might that be because it's not a weapon upgrade? You will find a similar phenomena with 5 man grens. Or bolster
Neither bolster nor 5 man grens upgrades the damage output of the stock weapons.
The 7man upgrade does upgrade conscript weapon dps. Id call that a weapon upgrade. |
Honestly, I think this is a good part of the meta balance. And putting sweepers on Volks will just make they even more shitty mainline infantry. Although the Uhu idea seems cool, at the same time it sounds silly to detect for mines with infrared scanners.
Well the sweepers would just be an optional upgrade, so instead of having to rely on 300mp 8 supply close range squads that have to also repair and lay mines and build defenses and provide healing, you can opt to build a 260mp 7supply infantry squad with sweeping who's other role is to provide long range support and anti tank snares. |
Reason is not make ST life easier, but to make OKW life better in case if you have lost your STs and in munition preserving and distribution. Right now you are paying 1\2 muni of ost perma healing bunker, just for 3 heals strate of the bat. Getting kubel and having cheaper heals ones you need them, rather then not spending MP while having expensive healing, it better imo.
I was always proposing 270-280 ST, with 2 ass.grens MP40 and STG upgrade. Starting squad would still start with 4 STGs (so meta and power wont change), while getting additional STs for sweeping\mines\reps, will be more affordable.
You have to compare them to the 5 supply engineers of other factions. Pioneers for example can spot and build cover, but their supply means you can fit more of them into your army. Unless sturmpios supply is reduced down to 6, okw will always be behind in terms of having units to fulfill needed utility roles. |
Its a lesser evil. Kubel is cheap, have very powerfull vet1 ability and in general can be quite usefull as a support unit and easily replaсable. On the other hand keeping meds on STs meaning that if you go for Mech and lose them along the major part of the game, you would have to spend 300MP which is huge at any point of the game.
My point is, its better to make a small change like this to healing, instead of trying to think whole another way of tech\upgrade healing system.
Speaking of sweeping, I honestly dont like the idea of sweeping volks. Because they are still way too expensive and weak un-upgraded to become sweeping unit imo.
STs sweeping is alright somehow, because at least your combat capability is un-effected. With volks you will be paying 260 MP, for an slightly better engineer squad, which still will be brutalised by anything but other engis units.
Giving healing away doesn't help sturmpios much as its pretty easy to just drop a crate at base whenever you have to retreat them.
On the other hand, sweeping specifically in 1v1 is one of OKWs biggest weaknesses. Sturmpios have to do so many things that you can't afford to have your sturmpios on mine clearing duty unlike any other engineer squad and one of the main reasons they are overburdened is because of their cost. 8 supply and 300 mp for a squad that has to sweep, repair, build wires/defenses, lay mines and offer direct combat support. Yes combat engineers have to do many of the same things but they only cost 170mp and 5 supply so you can afford to have an extra squad.
If the utility isn't offloaded on existing units the only other solution is make Sturpios weaker and cheaper. |
2) Without butchering healing too much, med crates should be moved to kubel, and it should be 1 crate not 3, for 10-15 munition. Right now there is no MP invesment (since you get SPs as starting unit), with creates moved to kubel, there would be MP invesment, allowing creates themself to become cheaper.
Healing shouldnt be teching factor, considering its a critical part of the gameplay.
I dont like the idea of putting med crates on the kubel because it would force you to get a kubel if you went mechanized HQ. That said i agree sturmpios need to have some of their utility dispersed.
Something that I/others have tossed around previously is giving volksgrenadiers a minesweeper package that uses up all weapon slots. The squad may or may not unlock repairs but if it does they would be slow repairs like conscript or pgren repairs(1hp per second per model). |
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Have to agree with the others, you are playing the wrong game mode if you want to avoid arty spam. |
One has to consider also another factor. The fact the since there have so many more entities there are more conscript entities focus firing on single entity making them die faster.
The performance vs other mainlines when vet 3 and in cover as I have seen them in test seem to be too good.
This has been my experience in a practical setting as well. They are also substantially easier to keep alive(due to the greater HP pool) and losing them is less costly compared to the other two allied manlines. |
Yes, cheaper things tend to be worse, Mr balance developer from Wish.
In vaccuum of the void maybe.
Compared to literally any other weapon upgrade at long range, its a joke increase. It is still an increase, but it gets outperformed badly even by a singular DP.
Sooooo no, its not substantial in any way.
But then again, DPS increase is not the strength of the upgrade given how even osttruppen LMG perform twice as good at long range.
Proportionally it is compared to volks Stg44, a single BAR, all G43s at mid and long range, the SVT upgrade for cons. Basically all your midrange stuff.
Yeah a general purpose upgrade is worse at long range then dedicated long range weapon upgrades. But then the 7man conscript upgrade is superior mid range to close range over LMGs in terms of damage increase.
Thing is unlike most weapon upgrades, the 7man upgrade gives a substantial DPS boost at ALL ranges. |
I wouldn't call ~1,2 a "huge DPS boost" that cooldown in cover provides but whatever floats your boat I guess?
(~2,2 including actual 7th model dps at long range)
It would be a total increase of roughly 2.4 at long range.
Id say a 20% increase in model dps and a 40% increase in squad DPS is fairly substantial.
It comes the absolute latest and also locks out the possibilities of any other weapon, even dropped ones. I think all is fair in what 7 man brings considering its rather large offsets.
I was not arguing for it to be nerfed. Please double check my original post to understand the context of my response. |
They do have cover bonus, but its very minor one on rate of fire.
Any weapon upgrade in game outperforms 7th man and that bonus in firepower given.
It was already nerfed.
Its a -30% cooldown reduction which isn't that helpful at close range but at mid and long range is a huge dps boost.
This results in 7 man conscripts actually being able to trade efficiently with LMG42 grens at long range.
The firepower increase from the 7 man upgrade outshines any single mainline infantry firepower upgrade. |
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