This. Buffing them straight up is a big no unless we all want to go back a couple patches to that one patch that was just IS2 and Tiger all game every game.
Yea I remember losing 2 Vet3 double bar Rifleman to a tiger in a shot or 2. Shit was insane.
I don't think it would be as bad as it used to be due to the tech requirements.
They do seem to be kind of weak for how much they cost(tanks, not TD), the only one that truly seems worth it is the KT due to available HEAT/TankComm/Spearhead. All the others ones seem to be easily counterable with available TD. |
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Ugly start with losing a penal squad early staying to long to beat out mg. Ally lost rifleman shortly after to long retreat path and blob. A little later I lose my scout car to bad car handling. I was being hesitant on pushing around the fussies. Didn't care about losing the car just couldn't decide whether to push in or shoot from far while other units took shots. As I noticed massive fussi blob I went with airborne LMG. Kept my fights at max range and with MP float built caches for the team.
Finally got my chance to payback OST player with wipe on retreat while Brit ally wiped another unit. This really set back OST player and he never really recovered as brit kept up pressure along with a few fear propogandas to keep him off balance. USF player and I poke and prodded while decapping cutoffs whenever we could. Eventually built Howi which OKW player picked firesteurm to counter. Think it was a good trade as I replaced howi with Katy later on but he is stuck with a commander he cant make much use of.
We go back and forth in the middle while USF player isolates fussie player and eventually kills Tigers causing him to rage quit.
Rewatching the game, he had a chance to really help out Ost player with Tiger push as he would have caught Brit player off guard and forced me to rotate but he left him to fend for himself. |
It does not necessarily have to be "pay to win", but it would just be vehicles that really only have been prototyped and then scrapped. For the Black Prince that was based on a heavily used tank, we can at least estimate how the performance maybe >could have been<. Still, it would be mostly made up, even if you have some performance data sheets. And to take the fully over the top example of the Maus tank prototype:
I think in Relics case it would be pay to win. They don't have good history of adding units to the game and not being OP on inception. Between factions, commanders and units almost each time something new was added Relic made a couple bucks and the units took over the meta. After a few months it did get toned down so their is that. |
For real bro are you not tired of spewing the same bullshit again and again?
We all know COH2 is not "realistic" by the standards of military notation since in actual military world even the most light operation can take up to 5 days to succeed (or fail) when in the game you must give as much content as you can to a player playing for 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Get real. Nobody said COH2 is WW2 simulation.
BUT, all the units ever used actually EXISTED.
NObody can blame the design team for ALTERNATE HISTORY scenarios, since even the most unicorn tank in existence (Sturmtiger) actually had a sizeable combat history.
Putting a blueprint tank on it sets a dangerous precedent.
And believe you me, Nazi paper tanks were way better than Allied paper tanks. So if push comes to shove, don't cope yourself too much.
Bro, your autism is showing. This is my first post in this thread. If your talking in general can you show me the last time I spoke about realism, the only time I can think of is complaining about OKW having any sort of late game air support.
I AGREED with the fact that adding blueprint tanks was a bad idea.
I guess I will cope hard as OKW used to be my favorite faction before the tech change. Shit, I used to build VG into mechanized and prioritized fuel to get flak out quick. Then build Battlegrouppe for JP4 with Falls providing elite infantry. I stopped playing OKW because they changed it to a crappy version of OST. |
I think people are so divided about the Black Prince because the "against" party is right when they say that it was never used in WW2 and too late in development. On the other hand, using and adjusted base of the Churchill and the 17pd gun as well as it's designated role in combat as an infantry tank, it visually and thematically fits into WW2.
That's why I assume that many people don't have issues with it being in the game: It "looks" like a Churchill, therefore it is believable to have been used in WW2. A Centurion for example wouldn't have that, this would be a completely "new" tank.
Overall, I am still against using it. While it probably would not break immersion (for 99% of players, it would just be a beefy Churchill), as others said, it would give a bad precedent. CoH2 using a ton of unicorn tanks is one thing, but at least you can imagine that you actually have one of those few in your specific battle even if chances are slim. The Black Prince however has never seen any front line. And while I personally could tick that off as "just another Churchill variant", I am afraid Relic would start implementing stuff that does not belong into CoH3 even by my comparatively lax standards, just because it can be sold well. Their CoH2 monetization strategy was already quite shitty, I don't have enough reason to trust them to not implement more post WW2 units into the game.
I personally could care less if it was never deployed as long as they had a prototype. My concern is the same as yours, once you let one random make believe unit in you let them all in and it is an easy way for relic to implement pay to win.
This thread is weird though as people want historically accurate but this game is not accurate in the slightest. Panthers should not be diving with their weak side armor, KV series should not be competing with late war tanks. Hell, right now the P4J is probably one of the best meds competing with the T3485 and E8. When it was first introduced it had horrible turret rotation to simulate german late war lack of resources. It was buffed since it sucked because balance. Similar situation with ISU152/IS2 stun mechanic, the gun wouldn't penetrate as often but the stun mechanic kept them in the fight allowing for support to come in and do their job. This game doesn't even attempt to simulate the upkeep of fielding heavy tanks, the closest was the Tiger ACE. |
Penals are viable in every gamemode regardless of how their stats look on paper compared to other infantry, especially elite long range infantry. They are also ridiculously good with the picked-up LMGs. I pick them if I want my build to have a punch in the early game or if I want to have more fun, since penals is high risk-high reward build. Cons are too boring imo.
I agree, they are overall a lot more enjoyable to play vs Cons. I like using them as they are similar to Rifleman in early game aggression. Rifleman have more consistent performance mid/late game since Penals will rely on weapon drops for boost in DPS while also lacking snare.
I don't fully agree with their viability in every game mode. In 1v1 and some 2v2s depending on randoms vs arranged team, Penals fall off fairly quickly once meds hit. Just speaking from my personal experience in 1v1, I could play however I wanted with Penals up until about rank 250. At that point, AXIS players stuck to more meta builds and literally would not deviate so no more PPSH Penals or AssGuards. To break past 200, I would stick to the aggressive Penal openings but found T2 back tech with AT guns was more effective than sticking with pure Penals. At that point, might as well go straight cons as they synergize better with team weapons along with ability to build green cover. That last point is huge as I noticed most of the late game swings were not due to gradual increase in MP drain but the random huge waste that would happen due to most available cover not being sized correctly for 6 man squads. So those random P4 shots would kill 4-5 models due to squad positioning vs the sandbags made by cons. This situation would also happen vs LMG units as those quick model drops would cause proportional DPS drop whereas the LMG squads wouldn't lose much due to the concentrated DPS.
Now AT 2v2, random 3v3 and up Penals perform fine.
EDIT: For transparency, I would purposely not pick Reg Guards commanders as I felt it took some of the fun out of the game. Probably could have climbed a tiny bit higher but not much. |
Hi, I am struggling with Ostheer 4v4 lately and I don't know what to do.
Usf: The pathfinder spam is kinda hard to deal with. I am not sure what to do in early game cos my mg keeps getting smoke and they would charge me while i was repositioning. If I go infantry heavy they still beat me or at least stalled long enough to bomb my grens with their mortars. Then they move to scotts of course.
UKF: mainly they spam mortar emplacement while their soviet or USF screen for them so it is kinda hard to dislodge them even with double mortars or mortar halftrucks. And eventually I could destroy the emplacements but it take so much so I wonder if there is a more effective way to counter it.
Soviet: they are alright except late game katusha can be a pain but that's late game.
I am just not sure what build order should I go for in the early game. Do go with my teammates or should I keep putting pressure on their fuel VP by myself, I have no idea.
I have a much easier time with Soviet cos I could just stall till I could spam Katusha and win the attrition game.
Post a replay, best way for someone to point out weakpoints that you can work on and help tighten up your strengths.
1v1 would be best or if you play as part of arranged team submit a game with them in it. |
This is a cool idea, tho I fear it would make guards obselete. I could be wrong tho
Im thinking it would be muni heavy as it would be advantageous to upgrade all Penals. However there is no long range snare so Guards would still be used for button or with cons. It would also eliminate the need for AT back tech. However, Penals would still drop of late game so LMG airborne or Shocks could be used more often. In truth seeing less guards should not be seen as a negative as there are many more units that would fit in. |
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Saw I was matched up with 2 OST and had middle area so decided to be cheeky and go for 2 Snipers. As I am building them I noticed ally made 2 Engi so I guess T1 start. Nope, engineers don't stop coming. I assume we are gonna get shitted on so mess around. He made that damn blob work.
I got a retreating sturm kill over mine, couple of wipes with Snipers but I was left in disbelief as I watched the dude blob his 9 engis.
Not a good game, watch it for laughs with a beer/smoke what ever floats your boat. |
The concept of two starting infantry units was very poor from the very beginning. It was a long time ago to remove the Penals into doctrine abilities, give them a merge and make them something like Osttruppen.
It was originally part of the flexible nature of soviets vs more rigid OST, Soviets had 2 play styles available non-doc were OST needed to pick a doc to get Osstruppen/AssG. OST had PG stock where doctrines were needed for Soviet elites.
Cons and Penals play completely different for most of the game, the choice between two different play styles is actually good for the game. The main issue arises from how much better Cons got after their 7man upgrade. Cons went from a throwaway squad to one of the best mainlines that also happened to get amazing vet. Hell, they even get exp boost along with cooldown bonus in cover while getting an extra man and MP reduction. The "drawback" was that it was the latest hitting upgrade however losing a Cons squad is similar to losing a VG squad in that the faction was originally designed around them being throwaways.
A possible solution for Penals would be the ability to stow away the PTRS guns. The overhead would still show them with PTRS guns but maybe grey them out so that the opponent knows when they are stashed vs when they are not. IT would allow Penals to keep their aggressive nature vs now where one unit becomes useless once upgraded. |
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