Munis for shreks in the early to mid game is also difficult, ostheer has to build 2 med bunkers, upgrade his grens etc. the idea is good but the execution is very difficult. Youre better off with a psuh on the pit with pak support.
I hear you but the reason I'm looking to see shrek play is because so many of these maps seems to have shotblockers for the mortar pit. Paks are also very vulnerable when pushed so far up - in one of your games Luvnest ended up losing his Pak to Seeking's mortar pit because of a double hit. If Ostheer are too muni starved, might it be viable for OKW teammates to equip Panzerfusilier shreks? I'm not desperate for a return to Grand Offensive meta, but the smoke from that commander could be very useful to support the kind of push I'm thinking of as well. |
Why not increase the penetration to 50 as other rocket arty?
Wouldn't the Stuka then have a pretty good chance to 1-shot retreating medium tanks? |
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My apologies if my post came across as disrespectful, that was not my intention. I wanted to point out the fact that this unit is currently dominant in the tournament so far and that we haven't seen Axis teams find counter strategies.
My personal opinion is that Axis teams are under-valuing shrecks, which could be pushed up the map under smoke cover to force brace on the pit or destroy it while brace is on cooldown. That sort of push should be possible at around 12 minutes, well before perimeter overwatch is a factor.
The fact that even top players like Luvnest have struggled to win as Brit without having a mortar pit up suggests it's a really important unit to neutralise and we're not seeing Axis teams dedicate proportionate resources to doing so. Rocket artillery and howitzers are not effective counters and in any case arrive too late to prevent the Mortar Pit bleed/ VP drain. |
This happens in a lot of games, and fairly often. While the map choice for UUT2 is interesting, changes to surrounding units (or other gameplay factors) can also dramatically influence gameplay choices. A great example of this is CSGO's "AUG", where it went from essentially unused to completely dominant in competitive play despite almost zero changes (a 4% price drop).
I think this is basically what happened. The heavy tank changes brought an end to heavy meta, which in turn reduced the importance of early aggression since teams are no longer racing for their heavies. The heavy tank commanders which tend to support aggressive playstyles (assault grens, shock troopers etc) are no longer being picked up. The numerous changes to other Brit units mean they are a better faction on the whole and much less vulnerable to aggressive openers. So overall there's more space and time for a mortar pit position to be established safely.
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Well, arguments about emplacements being op usually come from players who are bouncing off for 30 minutes of bofors and schwerer without a clue on how to deal with them.
Just to clarify, I'm not claiming the Mortar Pit is OP. I think its strength in these tournament games is likely due to failure of Axis teams to adapt proper counter strategies. I hope my post was structured in a way that made this clear! |
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Here's a quick bit of analysis of the finals games of the Ultimate Team Tournament Qualifying Rounds 1 and 2.
Allied Team Composition: Brits and Soviets
The end of heavy tank meta and and the armour nerfs to Jacksons have made USF an unfavourable option for Allied 2v2 teams, who no long rely on the Jackson's potent ranged AT. The significant buffs and changes to Brits have made them a much more valuable powerful 2v2 faction. A Soviet teammate can make up for Brits' earlygame weaknesses very well, and can complement in the lategame with spammable inf, powerful mediums and rocket artillery. As a result, Allied teams are playing Brit/Soviet every single game.
The Mortar Pit's Reign of Terror
In the finals of the UTT qualifying rounds, the Allied teams won 14/19 games. The Brit teammate built a mortar pit in all 14 victorious games. The Allies lost every game in which the Brit player did not build a mortar pit (3), and only lost the other two games due to spectacular blunders in which the Axis were able to needlessly pick up multiple vehicle kills. Most incredibly, of all the 16 games in which the mortar pit was built, it was only destroyed once - in the Grand Finals of Round 2, when the axis had already taken the entire map and won the game.
Lack of Axis Adaptation
Disappointingly, even after games in which they had destroyed their opponents using a mortar pit and Royal Artillery Commander cheese, Axis teams displayed no ability to deal with this strategy. Most teams opted for a fast Walking Stuka, but these had no effect on the mortar pits. The one LEIG that was built was rapidly decrewed by some fortunate Sexton shots. Most Axis teams opted instead to try to ignore the pit, taking significant bleed and giving up control of center VP. This was not a recipe for success.
Hopes for Finals
I'm eager to see Axis teams find viable strategies and timings to dislodge Brit mortar pits before Perimeter Overwatch can be used to shut down their assaults. Some combination of smoke, panzershreks and indirect fire will probably be necessary here. If the current Allied team meta proves insurmountable, I'm concerned that the finals games will be much less exciting than we as a community are hoping for.
Please share your thoughts and suggestions! - How should Axis teams deal with the Brit/Soviet composition, and in particular the mortar pit? |
3. They can and will kill heavy/medium vehicles with piats as they have elite version of piats. By this I mean that they will behave in a largely similar way to pzgrens with shrecks plus will have more durability. (It is really curious how some forum members keep demonizing shrecked pzgrens but are worried about "wasting" their own elite infantry when equipping them with bazookas/piats and downplaying their effectiveness).
As much as I agree with you that Commandos with PIATs are strong enough to be viable, there is no such thing as 'elite' PIATs. |
Hey guys,
I have watched the games from UTT and noticed, no Wehrmacht player uses Panzergrenadiers. And me, as a 90% Wehrmacht player, must say they are totally useless respectively they are overpriced for what they do.
I really like them to play: Good RA, good DPS and with Vet 1 they synergize pretty well with tanks.
Problem: You cannot skip Grenadiers in order to build PGs. But if you got 3 Grens in early, there is no MP left for PGs + AC or AT Gun. You will get overrun.
And on top of that, they don't get price reduction with T4.
What is your opinion? Maybe some tips from pro gamers?
To address your post more directly - I think there is scope for more Ostheer players to drop the third gren and pick up a 2nd pioneer with a flamethrower, and to drop down a cutoff bunker instead of a 2nd MG. It's easier to set up field defenses and keep up repairs with two engies, and getting a second one early saves on pop compared to a gren, gives you similar field presence and gets your repair veterency online earlier. A composition of double gren, double pgren and double engie is probably enough infantry if you're using them properly in concert with support weapons, vehicles and mines. |
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Watching UTT I thought a lack of good Panzergrenadier play was a crippling weakness for most axis teams. When they were built they were given G43s and used as regular elite infantry. But Axis players seemed content to allow mortar pits to be set up and rain on them for free without attempting to use covering smoke/ force brace/ hit them with Pgren shrecks and bundled nades. Walking Stukas and regular mortars proved unable to get the job done, so this would have been pretty useful.
Panzergrens are too expensive to frontline, but I think the understanding that these are just flanking CQC units is a bit outdated. Attempting deep flanks with Panzergrenadiers is quite risky given their low model count and the killing power of blobbed allied infantry. Instead, players should be taking advantage of their rapid movement near vehicles to quickly move them up for counterattacks. This makes a halftrack with Pgren shrecks a perfectly suitable answer to the mobile threat of T70, one that may be more useful for holding territory than the vulnerable Pak 40.
Unexplored synergies I thought the UTT exposed were: how artillery field officers with smoke/ mortar barrage combined with Pgren shrecks could have been a nice way of snuffing out an early mortar pit; how hulled down Command Tanks/ Panthers with supporting Pgrens might have been used to secure flanks more easily and prevent Ostheer players from being completely pushed off map.
This Midgame/Medium tank/Grindy meta lends itself to new strategies that don't rely on overwhelming infantry rushes or stalling for lategame heavies. We're just yet to see good adaptations by the top Ostheer players. |
Ammo toggles are meant to limit powerful general-purpose guns like the ones on the ISU-152 or M4A3. The SU-76 is a cheap unit that shouldn't need one.
The mini Soviet AT gun has ammo switch, so we already have cheap units with this function in the faction. |
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