In answer to both the 'adapt and accept p2w' and the 'IT'S A CONSPIRACY TO MAKE MONEY' lines of argument:
Personally, I don't think it's a conspiracy so much as these commanders not having been tested and adjusted properly before release - the same thing was obviously the case with the last batch of DLC commanders as well. (I cannot imagine that beta players didn't provide feedback on the four minute T-70, for instance, yet it's come out in the state it's in).
I don't mind putting new blood off the game if it's never going to be in a good state of balance on account of the continual releasing of unbalanced, inadequately tested commanders. This is more distressing because, commanders aside, Relic have been consistently improving and working on the game.
I also don't want to play a game I've already paid for myself because I know that with 2 T-70s before I would previously have gotten one, I should beat anyone of my own skill level consistently, and vice versa.
Personally, my hope is that Relic adjust the German Elite Troops and Soviet Industry Tactics to both have their first ability at 1 or 2cps so as the other features of the tree can be more obvious and they don't mess up the early game as much as they do, given that unlike the (in my view) still badly implemented Ostruppen and Assault Grenadier doctrines, neither of them is intended just to open up the early game options. Once that's done maybe the rest of the two doctrines can be properly balance tested.
To what extent they can effectively balance a paid doctrine (therefore, they probably won't want to remove abilities it was advertised as having) which was released with two of the best existing Ostheer commander abilities while keeping the new abilities interesting and effective is hard to know but I think at least it can be brought into line.
Edit: Tokarev, with the size of the playerbase being what it is I don't think that's a workable idea. Yeah, in an ideal world you'd have some catering for a vanilla option but I don't think it's actually practical right now. |
I posted another thread about this. Basically a very nice interesting change but it's a substantial buff to all the 0cp ability commanders.
Hence, you will actually have *more* assault grens than conscripts for the first few minutes of the game, still more Ostruppen than you will currently have, the manpower cost of an early vet will be less important, and Soviet Industry can probably get its T-70 even faster.
I'm fully in favour of it and hoping the 0cp commanders will get individual fixes, whether in moving some of their abilities back to 1 or 2 CPs, or in introducing a proper cooldown to Ostruppen and Assault Grenadiers. |
From the official site changelog:
--
Balance updates
· Molotov cooldown is now present.
· Starting Resources changed to 500 for both races.
· Build time of Soviet Buildings reduced by 50%.
Automatch Chat
· Automatch match chat should now be working.
Theater of War
· Bridge Defense: Fixed a crash after failing the mission before the secondary objectives started.
---
In general I really like the idea of these changes, though they seem to further favour the paid commanders with 0cp abilities (Ostruppen, Assgrens, German Elite Inf, Soviet Industry) over the basic ones. Question for those with the commander, how many Ostruppen can you now have out by the time of the second conscript? |
Halving the Soviet T1/2 build times seems like a very good idea to me.
Increased starting resources seems interesting - my only concern is the T0 call-in infantry. On account of Ostruppen and Assault Grens not having any substantial cooldown after ability use they will get out onto the field way faster than conscripts, which will even further exacerbate how much those units mess up the early game. If the cooldowns get made as long as build time for those units, I'd support it. |
It seems pretty detrimental to the game's long-term health to have a ton of people checking on the new balance patch to get put off by a simultaneous commander release. I'm very surprised that the new commanders have come out in the state they've come out in - better than the last launch but especially the Soviet Industry and to an extent the German Elite Troops doctrines both seem patently too powerful to the extent that there's very little discussion of either the excellent host of balance changes and the other commanders, either here or elsewhere.
Now, I think new, even paid, commanders could be a healthy addition to the game but I think the following set of principles would really help them integrate properly with it:
A) they need to be timed separately to the balance patch so feedback on the patch and people resuming play as a result of the patch can go ahead without being drowned out by the commander feedback.
To an extent even just releasing four to six commanders simultaneously, while very understandable, makes it hard to give decent feedback on the individual commanders on account of them all being matched against other commanders that also haven't undergone balancing... but at least keep it separate from the patch.
(which is why we have idiots answering every point made to balance one commander by saying 'well, you can just get that commander' or 'do you think instant vet's balanced then?' and the like)
B) there needs to be provision for quick, effective balance and bugfixes on the new commanders soon after their release. Having a commander hang around with patently OP or broken features for the month until the next bugfix is really offputting for players. Doubly so if it seems like every time the new commanders have been mostly fixed there are suddenly new OP commanders in the game.
C) the current paid commanders all seem to have been released in a state which I cannot imagine competent beta players feeling was appropriate for release. I don't know how long they spent in the beta or how many changes were made on account of that feedback but the answer to one of those questions is simply not enough. I don't expect new commanders to be perfectly balanced but the issues with a four-five minute T-70 really should have been spotted and mitigated before release, in the same way that free FHQs and some of the Ostruppen trench features were pretty inexcusable obvious issues in the last bunch of commanders.
D) I'm really pleased with the extent to which Relic are fleshing out the game's core features and getting it up to industry standard after what must have been a very difficult release. Certainly, if the input lag is fixed, the buildings and veterancy systems radically improved, worldbuilder, chat, map vetoing and many other features added in, I think there is some hope for the game in the long term. That said, if Relic is genuinely serious about trying to make COH 2 an esport, they *need* to improve their playtesting and system for releasing commanders. It's currently undermining the good work of the balance team and overshadowing really important new features and possibilities in the game.
(as an e) I theoretically like most of the new commanders - I think they're interesting ways of changing up the game. I just don't think that especially the paid ones are anywhere near balanced and that the continual use of 0cp abilities in doctrines is more or less inexplicable in these doctrines (so, why on earth would the instant-vetting not come at 1cp, for instance? It seems like that would fit much more within the paradigms of the basic commanders) except by the idea that you're giving someone instant access to something they've paid for, which, I think, is a bad principle for an RTS game balanced on these CPs to work on.)
Tl/dr: - balance updates and new commanders should be separate
- new commanders need to be fixed outside the normal patching schedule
- new commanders are overshadowing all of the general improvements made to the game. This is bad. |
Watching the balance video and watching the goals of this balance patch I can actually see, from a balance perspective, this patch was a success. Sure, some things need to be ironed out, and there are still some issues that are yet to be addressed, but the community is doing a fine job highlighting these so I won't go into specifics. So to the balance team, in terms of this patch objective consider it a job well done.
However, the issues that have arisen from the introduction of the new doctrines far overshadow the good work that the balance team have done in this patch. Pricing aside, the new doctrines are far too powerful, and honestly, it feels a bit sloppy. From all reports, all of the commanders are too powerful in some way. Sure, they're possible to beat, but I've lost nearly every game against someone who has had the new commanders because they're so great. I don't think the intention was p2win, but it certainly felt like after a few games that I was very, very cheated. Never before had I lost a coh2 match and left genuinely angry that I lost, not because I was outsmarted or played badly, but because someone had paid to do it. That's what it felt like, regardless of intention.
As this is first impressions I will leave detailed analysis for later and upon request, but in all honestly this was an absolute disaster of a patch. Previous patches have moved things maybe temporarily in the wrong direction but I understood that things like this happen. However, I can say with full conviction that this patch was released half cocked and half loaded; completely rushed. I can't blame the balance department because I assume that the people who release new content work in a different division, but regardless I can see much of the balance work unravelled by new content and it disappoints me. Furthermore, as a beta tester, I felt that the general consensus was that the new doctrines were good, but needed much balance work to be released. Regardless, in the haste to make more content to keep people involved, serious oversights and blunders have been made. I really hope that these issues are fixed quickly.
The bolded part completely reflects my own opinions. I haven't really played much yet because my internet's cutting out every ten minutes but that seems to be the conclusion I'd draw from watching streams. |
It might fix the armor problem, but the ability is also tied to the fast building too. Doing that would make that ability pretty useless.
So, it would only convert manpower to fuel income and give you very fast-building vehicles. That seems reasonable for a passive to me. You're still getting a faster first vehicle and the ability to build more faster on account of having more fuel.
Edit: pgmoney, the issue with the PAK is that there will be a very quick second T-70 and then they can honestly just charge it in a 1v1. |
Curiosity, do you guys reckon moving that ability back to 1 or possibly even 2 cps would fix it to an extent? The manpower loss seems like it would be reasonably severe as a counter-measure if it wasn't giving such a larger window of opportunity.
It seems like a real theme of the paid commanders that they all have 0cp abilities while free commanders do not, and a lot of the time it appears to be that messing with the very early game that makes it very difficult to reach a good balance compromise, and this one seems like a particularly severe example of that.
It also seems to me like a better solution for the building build times would be to generally reduce T1 and T2 times for the Soviets and then have the commander passive just affect vehicle build time. Currently the building and vehicle build times are just a huge buff for that commander, even without the fuel changes.
Edit: NB, purchased vet at the price it's at at the moment feels pretty weird to me too. Not buying the new commanders, so can't really test it. |
Some more of the issues I mentioned have been addressed in the latest patch. Updated the first post to reflect it. Nice to see these long-term issues getting some treatment.
(fixed imo last patch... interested to hear the opinions of others on whether these are fixed: T-70 dodging, KV-8; fixed this patch: probably Vet; changed: flamethrower crits, reduced. T-34/85s buffed). |
If that includes Manpower income that's a really big interesting tradeoff. I mean, seriously, if you get a Vet 3 Tiger but then can't reinforce any of your squads that's going to really be something the Soviets can actually work with. |