Profile of CieZ

Guards are probably the best infantry in the game... if you think they're useless you're probably just using them wrong :/

There's actually a point there. I don't remember seeing many - if any - shocks in the SNF tourney.

If high level players don't use them, surely they aren't that good?

Twister has used Shocks before in SNF matches, and against other highly skilled players in matches cast by Dane. He makes very good use of them - and Twister is actually way better than his statistics would imply - he just doesn't play much CoH2.

Barton has also used them in SNF, even before this patch, although he lost to a flame HT - I believe this was in some matches against OMGPOP?

Anyways, they're definitely viable at all levels of play. The main problem is that Guards are just SO good. Guards already perform well enough against infantry (being able to beat any German squad given a proper Grenade throw), demolish light vehicles, and are extremely effective against tanks. I personally can't justify getting Shocks in a 1v1 because Guards are just too OP. But they definitely have their place. (Not coming at 1 CP though )

I think you are saying that shocks can be countered so we should leave them at 1 cp?

If this is true this completely ignores the fact that shocks are the hard counter to Ost T1. They use to come at a time when you could punish long T1 builds and get back in the fight. Now they come so soon they actually come before the long T1 build and punish all Ost players. These units also get to the field earlier and get vet quickly, making them better in the mid game than they used to be.

What hard counter to shocks would I play from T1? (Please don't say snipers, Ost snipers are useless, and still very vulnerable to shocks)

Snipers are a very hard counter to shocks provided you micro them properly. They have a high rate of fire and guarantee a model kill per shot - which inflicts a lot of MP bleed on the Soviet player. Fielding Shocks and Snipers is extremely MP heavy and Soviet T1 poorly supplements Shocks, therefore there isn't too much that your German Sniper will have to worry about until Soviet T3 or T4 vehicles hit the field.

MG42s can also hold their own against Shock troops, although as mentioned in this thread, smoke grenades can be a pain to deal with.

I really believe that the discussion lies more in the realm of whether or not Shocks/Guards coming at 1 CP is simply too fast for the intended pace of the game. I for one believe that there are viable counters to Shocks at 1 CP, although it is certainly easier said than done. However I'm certainly open to counter arguments and am willing to assist players with suggestions if anyone is having trouble countering them effectively.

I don't want to derail the thread with this comment, but I think Guards are a bigger problem at 1 CP than Shocks because they also tend to beat Grenadiers (discounting Vet/LMG42s/G43s which won't be present that early - well maybe 1 LMG42 will) but they also serve as such a hard counter to German T2.

And I'm not sure you can have Shocks come at 1, but Guards come at 2. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like that would feel awkward - I think they need to come at the same time (preferably 2 CP)

Hi Ciez ,

The thing is CoH used P2P as well and input lag was not an issue. I believe this is more than just P2P something else is causing this.

Perhaps. I'm certainly not qualified to make a statement either way on this since I know very little of networking and next to nothing about how Relic actually handles everything behind the scenes with regard to this.

Would really take one of their insiders to comment on the issue as to whether or not there's an unseen factor causing increased delay. I'd like to assume that CoH2, being a newer game, actually has more information to communicate which might be a cause for increased lag when compared directly to COH1, but I could be completely mistaken in this assumption.

Also, I really do feel your pain. Most of my games are relatively smooth and I really appreciate them implementing their most recent fix that has increased unit responsiveness, but every now and then I get a game that is simply unplayable. (Often correlates with very bad-mannered Chinese/Aussie players) Very frustrating experience watching your units stand in a molotov for 3 seconds before even starting to move out - even though you ordered them to move while the Cons were throwing the damn thing.

Expanding on this, the ZiS crew is essentially a Conscript squad, they share the exact same health and armour. There's 6 men, they can be instantly reinforced from any nearby Cons squad, and are faced against Armour that's average at taking on Infantry, so Tank flanks are less threatening.

Now the PaK 40 crew, is not like a Grenadier squad, as they lack the 1.5 Armour that Grenadiers have, making them more like Conscripts. There's also only 4 of them, they also can not be reinforced from infantry squads, and are facing Armour that is above average at killing Infantry, so even a tank from the front is a threat (in one extreme but rare example, a T-34 decrewed a fresh PaK in one hit + 2 Grenadiers bunched up next to it).

The threats they face are also different, a PaK is more far less sustainable under fire than a ZiS. A PaK can be molotov'd, grenaded, mortared, or even artillery'd by a ZiS! The weakness of the crew members and small size make it more difficult to keep alive on the front. A ZiS on the other hand, is threatened by rifle grenades and mortars, but has a larger squad that can be reinforced on the fly at the cost of another squad. This makes the ZiS overall far more sustainable even after multiple attacks.

Overall, unless the PaK is recrewed by Grenadiers*, I don't think the 30% faster RoF makes up for all of its' shortcomings. I personally think the ZiS is the better gun in this case.

* Only Grenadiers. Panzergrenadiers are the same as Grenadiers except for their weapons and abilities, which are lost when you crew a weapon. This would mean you pay more to reinforce the PG's AND PaK, but gain no benefit for using PG's over Grens. Osttruppen are much weaker than the original crewmembers, and would not last half as long. Pioneers would be totally identical to the crew they replaced.

Very good analysis. Personally I still prefer a PaK because of how much better it is against armor, and like Barton I find the barrage to be very underwhelming for 60 munitions. (Example - watch Barton barrage Hans' position in game 2 of the most recent SNF. Hans has like 4 squads in the area, loses 3 total models and walks back about 5 feet. Yeah, not worth the price). Ultimately I believe that ZiS/PaK comes down to personal preference for many reasons already stated in this thread.

However, I believe that when a squad re-crews a weapon, it keeps all properties of that squad? As in, if you recrewed a ZiS with Pgrens (not sure why you'd actually do this but... for the sake of discussion) I believe they'd keep their armor and guns. Unless I mis-heard PQ on the most recent SNF stream he was saying that re-crewing a HMG42 with Shocks will result in a 2.25 armor crew... with PPSH-41s... and the HMG. Yeah, have fun trying to kill that.

Anyone else have better clarification on this matter though? I'm not positive I heard PQ correctly, but I do think that re-crewing (not merging) keeps all properties of the squad that re-crews.