Hit the dirt disables movement for a while, i would call that "cuts their mobility" and as far as i can remember the LMG is the only upgrade/ability that limits your mobility.
Shock troops grenades costs 45, guards grenades costs 45, flamer costs 60, so your point about the "expensive rifle nade" and how soviets abilities are all cheaper is also false.
I like the way this discussion is going i think there are a few good points, so please stop this hyperbolle bull Sh%t and keep to facts are people will stop listening to the few good and valid points made.
Hit the Dirt is not an upgrade, it is an ability. This is besides the point but, Hit the Dirt is specifically designed to be used in situations where you don't want to move. Dont get me wrong: the LMG42 is a good upgrade, it decimates, but there's a sacrifice there, a sacrifice most soviet upgrades don't have to make.
You clearly weren't reading me right: I was saying the rifle grenade is cheap, but the other abilities described above don't measure up. I haven't touched shock troops or guards in this convo at all, I've only been mentioning Conscript abilities as outlined by OP. The only comparison has been to unlocks in a specific doctrine, related to the G43, simply to outline the fact that by the time G43's hit, the Soviets have transitioned to different things that G43's don't work as well against.
Im not doing hyperbole here. I'm trying to view the facts and stats, and weigh them. Doesn't mean I'm right by any means (we are all stll learning the game on the go), but I'm trying to discuss points I've noticed. Don't like it? Ignore the "Bullsh%t" and move on.
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Shift-clicking retreat should prevent this.
This is true, if you want the shot to go off, but if for whatever legitimate reason you wish to bail out of the gamble, then you are getting charged the service.
I think the root of the problem is that there are no true animation cancels. I guess this also stems into the homing AT Nades and fausts.
Gonna have to perform shift retreating then. |
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Lets not forget Med Kits are nigh useless when you can, in theory, build a medic bunker which will save you on munis in the long run. They are good in a pinch, but very situational.
G43 are doctrine specific, require 2 CP's to unlock and cost 60 munitions. You can get any of the Conscript abilities... No, you can get ALL of those abilities in a single game, by the time the German player simply unlocks the G43, let alone pay for it, and upgrade time.
Camouflage sucks. Its 30 munis, very situational, the damage bonus is negligent. You dont need damage in this game, when every single soldier is carrying Space Marine Armor.
LMG42 is a very nice upgrade, but that's for 60 munis, brings you down a flamer, cuts your mobility dead and hurts your chances to faust the incoming Clown Cars. Not one single ability in the soviet arsenal cuts their mobility, in fact, they tend to boost it.
and the best of them all: the rifle grenade. This is the most situational, non doctrine specific ability in the game. Not only do you need a very specific range but the damage is completely decided on how the enemy units are positioned. Those enemies better hugging, because otherwise, its a waste of 25 munitions.
25 munitions... thats the cheapest ability in the german arsenal, and it is more expensive than any one of the soviet abilities. The only things more expensive than these, are soviet high explosives such as demos and satchels. Which the Axis army has no close equivalent of, anyway.
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SU-76s have just had their barrage damage reduced by a third and their barrage reload time increased by a third. StuGs should be better against infantry now - I've seen one take out an SU-85 since the patch. 120 muni shreks are phenomenally decent AT, especially if they get the drop on a vehicle.
In 1v1 at admittedly not a tremendously good level (mostly playing Ostheer), I'm finding Ostheer both more flexible and more engaging after the patch (vehicles which aren't a stug are more viable as a first choice) and it's the first time in the Beta I've seen P-IVs and Ostwinds fill the roles they should.
Clown car rush in 1v1 has not been an enormous problem for me, though it seems to be beating the scripts in popularity right now. Maybe if I was against someone with much more solid micro, it would be, but even then you can use LOS to faust the bugger.
Lets attack these one by one.
1) SU-76 barrage is pretty much gone. This is good. Stug's, however, suck now. They are not as good as a PIV against infantry, and they royally suck against tanks, particularly because it is slow as hell. It should have had a cost increase, not a statistical nerf. Shrecks are NOT worth it, it takes 120 munis form an already starving army, and the soviets can get insane anti personnel units before you can get any shreks out. Drop a shrek (since they are doubles, this is very likely), and you risk giving the most potent infantry in the game AT capabilities.
2)Ostwinds are too expensive now, although admittedly, now they can hit something. The only reason why Stugs arent your first choice anymore is because, as stated, they arent as useful. I don't want my stug to kill infantry. I can get an ostwind for that.
3)Scout cars can be countered, but you have to be expecting it. In 1v1, it is not a big problem because there is a fuel sacrifice for it. However, the scout car as a support unit is supperior, in every respect that matters, to the armored car. It kills faster without troops in it. It can house snipers, conscripts or flamers. It can cap with any troops inside. For a cheaper cost.
Welcome to the Eastern Front, gentlemen. Now I understand the meaning of the achievement called "Delaying the Inevitable". |
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I was able to replicate this twice in a single game. I'd like someone else to try this out just for confirmation...
If you fire a faust and you retreat just as the shot goes off, the SFX will go off, the game will charge you the faust cost, but you will not get any effects from the faust at all.
If this bug is confirmed, it brings up a critical issue in the game: many times, you will be risking a squad to get that tight faust off against a scout flamer, or an enemy tank, just before you retreat. It would suck if the game charges you munitions for an ability that never kicks off. I'd like to assume this could apply to AT nades as well, but haven't tried it. |
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I havent experienced issues with the Satchel at all. It is strong, but it is easy to dodge if you are paying attention. If the timer is increased, I'd say 1 second is more than enough. 5 seconds would make it less worth the munis.
However...
Lets consider that satchel charges will pretty much destroy anything they hit. If not destroyed, it'll limp away. Its an amazing building deterrent for the Soviets, alas the unit throwing it is a waste. Have a troublesome building with an enemy unit inside? Throw a satchel. Problem gone, much more efficient than a Demolition Charge. |
Molotov seems to somehow screw with pathing.
Infantry is not responsive to move out of it.
Oorahing into Molotov range is something so retarded it should be punished severely on the approach through the open without cover.
Also, the molotov, while requiring an upgrade, allows conscripts a soft tool to dislodge enemies out of buildings. Sometimes it is useless, but when it works, it works. The germans have no true tools to dislodge off buildings. Only the flamer HT, but that only works early on. |
CombatMuffin, I hear you but it's a bit chicken and egg. I find myself needing early rifle nades versus HtD, which degrades my ability to get LMGs.
I am now playing a very defensive run-around game to mitigate this, a bit like Amis versus PE which is totally ass-backward. This is to try and retain munis but of course given the 30% faster manpower ratio of spammed scripts, even this is tough.
It simply shouldn't be like this. And it is because some of the finesse from vCoH is missing, the granularity. Micro seems to matter very little in early inf v inf play.
It is missing granularity: the damn small arms damage. I was playing a game earlier. My teammate barraged an enemy maxim with a mortar, to no avail. I am content with the tank balance so far, although I think Ram still needs fine tweaking.
LMG's are mostly useless for me, but I've stated this numerous times. Sacrificing that mobility is just too damn much. If the LMG had a munitions cost for suppression, like the Bar did, I'd be VERY satisfied. |
or maybe 65/65. I can not grok how they figured out these costs...
+1 for the Stranger in a Strange land reference.
Shreks are not viable due to cost, true.
My main issue with PGrens, is that they are very effective, but not effective enough. Shock troops decimate them, no matter the circumstance (its an I-Win situation).
The scout car is fine statwise. It dies fast enough, and given the right circumstances, you can destroy with one gren and one mg. Maybe increase the fuel cost a little so it weighs on your transition and upgrades.
Really, the scout car and Armored Car are useless in after early mid game. Anything simply rolls over them (in the case of Armored Cars, even the lowly conscripts).
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I dont feel molotovs are too powerful right now. Most of their true damage is dealt in the initial burst, but like rifle grenades, they are very predictable to dodge.
I will insit, again, that the problem in infantry matchups right now, is small arms fire damage. It's what making concscripts vs grens so inconsistent ni the first place: we rely more on RNG critical hits than actual positioning, and cover is a joke.
Rifle grenades are NOT comparable to molotovs. They are very situational, you need a very specific range to just shoot them, you can't "lead" your shot on enclosing conscripts (where they will destroy you, unless you have G43's) and most importantly: they will deal little to no damage if the enemy is not bunched up together.
Once small arms fire is increased, units trying to throw molotovs will HAVE to be close, and most likely out of cover (unless the situation/cover favors the soviets) to throw it. |
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