And as I explained FF does not need vet 3 to hit the JP. Due to 45 mid range and tank commander it has an excellent chance to hit the JP4 even at vet 0.
I did mention at what vet FF gets the accuracy bonus because it is different from the other TDs, but a FF does not need it against a JP4, so it is not a part of my argument.
Su-85 and M36 get x130% accuracy at vet 2 and FF has a mid range of 45(!!!) x110% accuracy from commander and another x130% at vet 3
you are selectively picking your own words and ignoring the rest.
and Speaking of FF, they have a good reason for their high accuracy. They have one of the worst DPS in the game. 200 damage with a 8s reload is pretty bad. Their mobility is pretty bad as well.
FF:
+good accuracy
+good penetration
+tulip rockets
-bad mobility
-bad DPS
-tulip rocket require a individual munition upgrade and munition cost per use. It's very munition hungry
-bigger than normal size (23)
and actually let's look at FF vs jp4 accuracy at 45m
FF size: 23
jp4: 17
FF accu at 45: .05 (x1.10) = .055
Jp4 accu at 45: .045
FF vs jp4 = .055 * 17 = .935 (.85 if no tank commander upgrade)
Jp4 vs FF= .045 * 23 = 1.035
even with the tank commander, the Jp4 have an accuracy advantage over the Firefly. it is statistically impossible for a stationary jp4 to miss the firefly at 45m.
It has the main gun of TD, it also has HMGs. Call it what you like but one can not relay on it to counter infantry.
Ostheer Panther with HMGs or not is simply not a cost efficient unit (with very high Pop.)
And again my original point is that one must first find a role/balance Panther and then balance the Comet.
It also has grenades, WP and 45 vision and can easily kite AT PG, AT SP or AT ST. It can even counter counter ATGs better than most other tanks.
So I am not really sure what someone should expect from this unit.
panther have the gun of a td but the MG's of a medium tank. That is not a true specialist.
The su-85, jackson, and Jp4 all lack any mg. The Firely have one weak coaxial that's more cosmetic.
The old wehr panther had cosmetic mg, but no longer. They were buffed
The devil is in the details. lumping the current panther into the same group as the pure TD is a gross simplification at best, and a complete disregard for reality at worst.
the british at 4 men at 280 mp is too expensive, but at 5 men is too cheap.
instead of delaying the upgrade, nerf the soldier overall and make the upgrade cheap enough to buy in the first ten seconds. this would avoid the huge power jump.
This would allow the british of choosing between tommies (squad size), bren carrier, or vicker for their opening.
and limit tommy to one bren gun. Commandos are actually fine with dual bren gun since it mess up their CQB synergy.
Main battle tanks (MBT) in this game are more expensive than specialized tanks even if worse in the specific role.
PzIV is worse than Stug in AT yet its more expensive the same way Panther in better in AT than the Comet.
You also do not take into account the Tech cost of Ostheer tier 4 that provides very little compared to Hammer which in my opinion pay for it self even if one does not built a single Comet.
Finally you do not take into account that although Panther is better as AT on paper it is not cost efficient, due to the effectiveness of allied TDs.
Panther is also hit with a number of nerfs.
The fact that it "scale" worse does not mean much if it starts better. If I have 10 dollars and you have 1 I will still remain richer than you in I earn 10% of my estate and you earn 100%.
(Commandos are prime example of being overbuffed in their vet bonuses compared to PG for about the same price, since they are way better at vet 0)
Comet get "warspeed" and 45 vision from vet 0 which OKW needs to get vet 1 and vet 5 (while being inferior since it requires to be stationary) so although it get less bonuses for vetting it does necessarily mean its in worse spot when fully vetted.
In addition it has the same XP value as ostheer Panther while being more expensive and it fighting units generally more expensive units thus it vets faster.
As I also have explain Vetting needs an overhaul.
Comparing an TD with a MBT is misleading.
And that is why T-34/76 is too cost efficient with low Pop compared to Ostwind for a similar price.
Closing, as I explained before, one first has to give a role/balance the Panther and then use it as benchmark to balance allied Premiums.
The panther is not a true specialist.
The old wehr panther might have been a real specialist, but it lose the claim when it got a buff to its mg. (and coincidentally a reload buff).
The panther might have worse Pure anti-infantry than the comet, but it's still better than true TD.
Stop with the false equivalence and try to categorizes the panther as a pure TD like the Jackson.
and similarly, the comet's main gun might be similar to the gun on the other medium, but the t34, sherman, panzer4, and cromwell are better at AI due to mg, reload, or AOE.
The difference in target is with SU-85 is 1 (18 even smaller than the Stug's 20).
Su-85 and M36 get x130% accuracy at vet 2 and FF has a mid range of 45(!!!) x110% accuracy from commander and another x130% at vet 3
Both armor (allied TDs will penetrate it reliably) and target size might help JP4 vs allied TD but do not guarantee victory, in addition M36 and Su-85 are more mobile and can break the engagement if they have to.
And JP4 needs to be strong vs allied TD because OKW luck the normal counters of 60 range ATGs and strong AT infantry.
JP is not a bad unit (it over priced and has too much pop as counter to allied mediums) but simply it is not more cost efficient than allied TDs.
really, you're going to bring vet 3 into this?
the jp4 is the only TD to get a hp boost at vet2, which make the the most survivable TD considering its armor, size, and HP.
The JP4 is survivable, Su-85 have the best gun, Jackson have speed, Firefly have (expensive) alpha strike. They need cost adjustment. The jp4 and Firefly need to be cheaper.
It has a 5% of probability to bounce a shot at max range. Even if someone would actually argue it is "a chance to bounce" with a straight face (that would be a showcase of utmost politician skills), IIRC percentages under 9 or 6 % are considered null by the game.
The rest is based on the wrong idea that jp4 can actually make use of its armor against anything bigger than a generalist.
To play devils advocate even with the tremendously higher pen on the su85 the JP4 still has a chance to bounce it at max range while the su85 will always be penned by the JP. so i mean there is that... Su85 should have a small pen reduction since it has that big buff with vet, but the JP4 is a good choice being the only non doc axis unit that not only can match the range of allied TDs but also being one of the few units that will deflect shots on occasion.
Jp4 doesn't just rely on having good armor, it's also one of the smallest target on the field. A size of 17 means the Jp4 can dodge as well as bounce shots.
On top of that, the jp4 have faster reload than the three Allied td.
the penetration is really the jp4's weakest element, and it's still enough to 100% pen the most common allied tank and td.
Both factor combined means the jp4 will reliably win in a td vs td fight.
If you mean Panther, Tiger and King Tiger it should not be able to (although it might if it circle strafe the 2 super heavies) for a number of reasons:
1) It is not the role of main battle tank to win vs a TD like Panther or far more expensive Supper heavies. That is firefly is there.
2) Comet's cost efficiency needs to be close to Churchill so that hammer anvil is actually a choice.
3) It will win vs Brumbar which is heavier than PzIV as it should.
Allied "Super heavies" exist. It a term used by Relic to describe the unit that currently limited to 1.
IS-2 has King Tiger level armor which is more than Tiger. IS-2 has a very good chance to win vs Panther so I would call it an even match.
Actually 3 abilities not 2 and no. At 200/50 the unlock is cheap enough to be worth it for the abilities alone alone even if one does not built Churchill/Comets.
If the issue is the Hmg simply remove them from the Panther but make the unit worth it in the AT role since currently Stug is much more cost efficient.
In addition the HMG firing vs unit in cover while moving are not that efficient.
Finally Allied AT infantry have become extremely potent (see AT conscripts) with deadly snare (AT grenade assault, AT satchel, heavy gammon ) so staying in range of AT infantry to fight them with HMG is not a good option.
T-34/76 (and T-34/85 which was buffer by accident)is simply OP since it cost about the price of Ostwind can fight infantry adequately and can also fight vehicles. If one takes into account the the cost of allied infantry the scale easily tips in favor of allies.
That is a design decision. Most UKF unit start very strong and have weaker veterancy bonuses. On the other hand as pointed out in previous post Comet gets a number of vet 0 goodies like War-speed, tank-commander, smoke, hammer tracking, grenades.
you're losing sight of my original point. I am asking for a cost decrease.
the comet is weaker than the panther at anti-tank. That's to be expected since historical the comet was weaker than the panter in a straight fight. This is fact everyone agree on.
The comet trade in anti- tank capability for anti-infantry capability. It is not superior to the panther and thus should not be more expensive. the comet should get at least a price decrease to match the panther.
Don't just pretend the comet was not the most nerfed unit in the recent patches. Even if I agree the nerfs were justified, it also mean the price of the comet needs to be re-evaluated.
and secondly, both panther get blitz to match the comet's warspeed eventually. This further reinforce the point that comet scale badly compare to most unit.
If the axis want to retain their tank superiority, they should at least expect to pay extra for them.