I've lost several very close game precisely because of this ability. Pretty much OKW just pushes with armor and forces you to give up your position. If you lucky you can get unscrached, but often planes deal ~300 damage and can easily finish off bruised armor.
Here is a cast where the OKW pretty much picked the doctrine at ~20ish minutes just to have this ability. He did not build JLI, no goliath, haven't seen any use of "For the Fatherland" and of course no LeFH.
So, yes, it is an effective ability. If it were not, Scavange would have been more popular choice, then it is currently.
It is very strong. This is basically a "pay muni to roll over the enemy" ability. Wrecks armor very well, while suppressing everything. The only counter is AA, which is OK to build it team games, but a debatable investment in 1v1, imo.
So for the muni you get vehicle killer and infantry suppresser. Pretty much a deadly 'propaganda' because it forces a mass retreat.
Yeah it should be 44 at both 8 m and 14 m, meaning the damage stays constant between these points and is zero anywhere beyond 14 m. A bit counterintuitive, but that's how I found it to work after running some tests a while ago (more details here).
Thank you for the info. Just updated the stats.
offtopic:
By any chance, do you have any info about repair speeds of assault engies, cons/penals and automatons?
Basically this means there is a 4th distance threshold for the AoE of a projectile (AoE n/m/f/max). For some units, such as the AVRE, the far and max AoE radii are the same, for others the max AoE radius is significantly larger (e.g. the ST with an AoE far and max radius of 8 and 14 m, respectively).
I'd like to update the table with stats, do you know the damage at max range and how it behaves after 8m? Or is it just 44 at 8m and 0 at 14?
Okay, I'll elaborate as much as I know, MMX will know better about this stats.
But before that, to answer your question. No, AVER deals NO DMG after 8 range, while ST deals some dmg after 8 (~14). Not quite sure about the modifier, so can't say how much it deals.
Stats I'm relying on are Seralia's. So I'm kind of curios about the performance, since I've made a dedicated post about Sturmtiger and there is no mention about performance past 8 range.
OHK (~ mid AoE) diffrence is 3.75 vs 4; ST can deal dmg up to "14" radius while AVRE has "8".
So yes, I think ST has better AOE.
So does that mean that AVRE has a hard cap of 44 damage after 8 range, while ST's drops to 0 at 14? Please elaborate. I've already heard it, but haven't seen exact numbers. Do you have them by any chance?
OK (decent), as if level of performance, so basically I'm good with unit being meme like an old B4 used to be, but nowhere near meta. Perhaps unit should have some gimmick while reloading, like being stunned after getting hit during reloading and thus resetting it, or having incoming damage increased during that phase. Perhaps reduce range from 40-45****, to 35-40**** and remove self spotting at vet 4, reduce health by 160 etc.
1) The ISU comparison doesn't make much sense, because the ISU has actual armor and field presence, and will deal damage more consistently on top of being effective against all targets on its own. On the contrary the Sturmtiger was specialized to only be effective on armor with a direct improbable hit, after which it will still require at least (base medium HP) a direct hit.
It's overall easier to counter and punish a Sturmtiger, that it is to punish an ISU, which makes your statement about the Sturmtiger not involving risk wrong. This is especially true if we consider the range advantage at guns and tank destroyers have over the Sturmtiger.
First it is purely state of the meta comparison, not the unit comparison.
Second 2 rax into ST, or 1 rack, ST and JT if you struggle with tank destroyers. AT guns are not a problem for ST but the other way around. ST can pretty much drive to AT tanking shots and procced to wreck it. Seen in happen with Jabber, happened to me. The situation is far from ideal lmao
2) The ST, Avre and B4 being called NOW toxic is nonsense. I have had a brand new Panzer 4 being tracked by a brand new B4 that never fired and oneshot it because of a spotting flare that could barely be seen. I also had medium oneshotted by a Sturmtiger behind a sightblocker. Those tools are now more consistent but you will never lose mediums and heavy armor without any counterplay because your opponent clicked at the right time a single button
You cannot one-shot with neither B4 nor ST. B4 brings 640 unit to 240HP, ST to 60HP.
3) Both Avre and ST come around a time where players have various recon options. Even at their highest range, there's loads of tools that can track down those vehicles, that are loud.
The Sturmtiger may need to rotate on top of that
4) The Sturmtiger getting 10% additional armor means it has 240 armor at best. It's unlikely that anything will bounce from it. Durability through large HP pool is a double edged sword that requires large repair times if the player can't contain the received damage. When you factor in that 2 properly used at guns at their max range (60) can fire 3 volleys before it can even fire to them the Sturmtiger becomes only really effective when used as part of combined arms, as it should be.
They are loud, but ST still have more range then most units have sight, which makes it hard to predict who might get hit, hence nerve racking.
Health is more preferable then armor, especially with Axis, since TDs have plenty of penetration. IMO t34-85 will be always ahead of p4-j, precisely because of that. It is a reliable metric that you don't have to gamble on and effective regardless of penetration. Also 1280(1440) health pool means you need 2 (3) shots to pen before landing a successful snare (good luck killing it without one)
It would sound really easy to counter an ST, if it was like Tiger or KT that need time to do damage, so they are exposed longer to AT fire. But this does not work that well if the tank literally nukes stuff. And again, AT guns and tank destroyers should see ST before shooting it. It needs ~4 seconds after stopping to deal damage and then it just backs off.
Great post and comprehensive head-to-head comparison.
All things considered I would say the unit is overall good to very good, depending on the game mode it's used in, but not OP.
In terms of effectiveness the ST is probably on par with the AVRE in most areas, give or take a few.
As you've already pointed out its biggest advantage is the slightly greater range that, in conjunction with the improved projectile collision, allows the ST to engage - and often wipe - units from beyond their range of vision. The AVRE on the other hand can't do the same unless hiding behind a sight blocker. However, this is somewhat remedied by the fact that retreat wipes are a little easier to pull off with the AVRE as a result of the lower aim time and, most importantly, having a turret.
Other than that the lethality of both units is essentially the same; the ST has quite a bit less OHK range than the AVRE but makes up for that with the vastly greater max AoE (14 vs 8 m), which lets it nuke wounded squads a lot easier with more margin for error with regards to aiming.
With respect to the pick rate I'd say the recent spike in popularity is probably more a temporary phenomenon, just as with the new B-4. Not to mention that other parts of the Elite Armored make the doctrine a solid pick regardless of the ST being called in in every game or not. Hence I think it remains to be seen if this surge in popularity will last and if this is truly an indicator for the ST overperforming.
The issue is the range, amount of health and VET4 bonuses. With AVRE you atleast will see it most of the time, and it is also still somewhat inconsistent (see screenshots below "Example of undershooting AVRE"). It used to be high risk high reward unit. Seems like the "high risk" part was removed, while high reward part was not adjusted. For example it is still possible to build both ST and KT.
I asked few streamers (The Angry Dutchman, Jibber, Elpern, Siberian and Baoliang) and the answers were ranging from "batsh*t broken" to "extremely strong". I would not have created a thread, if there was an absence of consensus about the unit in the first place.
1. way to tanky (1440 HP at vet 2).
2. is able to shoot from the fog of war with selfspotting at vet4. At least with AVRE you can see where it is shooting.
3. It comes too early and already paired with a great doctrine that counters high hitpoint armor with HEAT rounds, making units like comet, t34-85, E8 etc less effective. And good luck even diving on that thing, considering how the game punishes such moves with mines, fausts and AT guns.
The unit is toxic and nerve racking to play against, especially vs double rax build. Nerve racking and toxic destroys the mood and I'd like to have fun while playing it.
This is similar situation like with ISU, that used to be completely broken (in teamgames including 2v2), except with ST you need to pay 5x attention during a game, or else you have a good chance of losing it.
Units that are in the conflict with the core idea of COH2 as an RTS (unit preservation) should not be highly effective or nowhere near meta, regardless of which faction owns one
So pretty much I'm ok with AVRE and ST at any level below OK and hoping a lot of people share my sentiment.
Here I'll show some pickrate data across the ladder pre and post patch with addition of data including last two week. Sorry, 3v3 is not included Special thank you to creator of https://coh2stats.com/ website. You are the best!
1v1
pre patch
post patch
2v2
prepatch
post patch
4v4
prepatch
post patch
As you can see the pickrate increased substantially. Pretty sure the culprit is the hero of this thread.
In this thread I would like dissect Sturmtiger (also ST) as a unit and compare it to Churchill AVRE, the only similar unit that is present in the game. Thread will contain changes that made Sturmtiger so prevalent, stats, pick rate as well as few nuances here and there. Also keep in mind that I purposefully avoided data about mgs and ST grenades, because there is too much stuff to include as is
PART I
Commander patch. Where it all begun.
Patch notes:
Here are reasoning behind these changes by balance team:
Part 1
Part 2
PART II
Stats
Veterancy
Sturmtiger
AVRE
So in essence just by looking at stats here are key advantages of each vehicle:
Sturmtiger
AVRE
But since AVRE didn't got similar adjustments as ST did, it still might undershoot from time to time.
Example of undershooting AVRE
Also here are several screenshots to show what exactly 40 and 45 range with seflspot looks like + AVRE as a reference point:
AVRE normal 35 range (most units in the game have 35 sight range)
Sturmtiger
-------- 18.07 Updated the stats table to include max range AOE for ST