Guys, if mod team is going to make 120 dmg main gun for churchill then it will be a clone from vcoh. Remember how nobody used churchill in vcoh ( I'm not talking about AVRE or Croc)
I dont think 120 is the cause at all...vcoh ukf probably goes kangeroo piat ftw. |
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because churchill have high survivability and its main counter is panther.
The dynamics of side/rear shot inflicting same 160 damage by a heavy AI tank makes no sense imo.
Hence 120 is fairer and still keep the dynamics of AI and damage sponge. It is just less effective in dishing extra damage and Ukf needs proper AT support.
This is more effective than trying to limit through popcap increase.
120 is still potent against P4 and below. Considering P4 needs rng to even pen Churchill side/rear... |
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panther rear used to be 121 on vet. A nice place and nice reward for vetting, that rng against med tanks at max range like t3476 and 76sherman. Right today, even aec can troll it.
panther vet bonus is bad and scale poorly late game.
allies TD got huge pen buffs which negate axis armor. they get delicious vet bonus. every one knows the 60 range thingy.
Hence this thread is calling for rebalancing panther armor that rewards its late game effectiveness. |
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Giving further thoughts, churchill AT damages are going to come against flanking tanks or stray shots off the front. This is where its pen values are enough. Hence it shouldnt be doing 160.
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puma/su76 are mid AT tank, they cannot be compare to churchill.
rof will affect its AI role
pen, how low can it go?
120 is still enough to counter p4 and below. it may make it harder to 1v1 panther but imo rng on paper and ingame just not so clear cut.
it shouldnt be deal same effective damage against panther anyway. |
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yeah i think that match shows, even if you +2 popcap to churchill for sbp, i will show you 3 of them and walk over you. Really trolling at its best.
but i dont think health reduction is fun and takes away churchill asymmetrical idea.
i still stand by 120 damage to reduce its AT performance. |
Reducing its damage to 120 is just an unintuitive change. If its damage from the main gun is deemed to be too good for its cost just modify its accuracy and or rate of fire.
No is not.
reducing to 120 locks down its AI soaker role more proper.
changing accuracy or rof introduces more variables and also affect its AI role.
120 is still strong enough to counter p4 and below easily.
this is the kv1 hulldown video i was speaking. it is closer than it is supposed based on armor/pen values. now add in support units and churchill 120 is still enough to trouble axis backline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKMxUSuk2g4 |
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The rng i played against churchills has always been more effective than it should at inflicting AT damage.
At most i guess you need 2 extra shots to kill panther at 120. But churchill arent meant to kill panther, so that is the problem solved.
Ukf wont go ez with churchills, and would do proper AT supporting damage soakers.
If we watched the multiple hulled KV1s vs panthers someone demo, kv1 has worse pen than churchills, but IIRC it ended with hulled kv1 victory by just.
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The thing is 160 -> 120 is not underperformance.
It supposed to be a AI and "support" tank, and not use its high survivable to kill tanks, which is whats happening now.
Forcing it stay a little long should compensate for this survivability.
+1 popcap isnt much availability in this case imo. I believe one can still build 2 churchills. 3 churchills is not commmon in 1v1 or 2v2. But if one wants to, 3 of them is still possible, you just keep 1 less tommy, which you dont really need with 3 churchills around. |
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120 is still a lot of damage, you need 1 more hit to kill a tank, which i think is fair for its 1400hp, give axis another chance to hit it or Ukf can decide is it worth to stick around longer.
Churchill moving accruacy is better than panther p4, it has good rotation and smoke and self repair. An extra popcap doesnt make it imo.
Since it is so hard to kill which allows more vet, you can still end up with double churchill and a FF, even with the +1 popcap penalty.
ukf 5 man tommy is only 1 popcap more than grens but performs better.
Weakening its AT is most sensible that is also keeping the theme of heavy armor soaker late game AI unit.
It needs to be better countered, which means we should look at its performance and not costs imo. |
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