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Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 3 Nov 2017, 11:48 AM Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 10:41 AMVipper Idea that conscripts should be able to deal with late game axis infantry without tech/weapon upgrades or somethings else is flawed in its origin. Late game axis infantry are infantry with a tech cost and should be able to win vs T0 units. I don't see an issue with the fact that if someone chooses to go from 20 to 10 with their lmg grens to engage cons, actually loses instead of winning at all ranges. Anyone moving in with grens is already making a mistake. Moving in with grens is always a bad choice, the fact that they could get away with it and still win due to the lmg, does not validate it. Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 10:41 AMVipper If I wanted to fix conscript's late performance I would offer global upgrades for them one in each building. I am all for upgrades to add choice and diversity to the game. We can agree on this. But this might be out of scope while this adjustment might make an underperforming unit more valid which for me is an overall improvement. Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 10:41 AMVipper To tell you the truth I don't really feel that grenadier are allot better in late game and I rarely replaced them if lose a squad to an explosion and go for pioneers. They are The problem is not their performance it's the fact that they get wiped by demos and due to clumping other things. This should also hopefully get better with the new patch (even though demos remain the same for now). The reason why you and also I (most likely others as well) often opt to go for pioneers is because we just need something to cap and repair tanks because the tanks do more of the fighting and having them repaired quicker seems more beneficial in terms of damage dealt than replacing a lost gren. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 3 Nov 2017, 10:23 AM Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 09:50 AMVipper I am simply pointing out making optimal range 10 and far worse 0 is problematic especially since one can not judge distances so accurately. If I follow your argument, then you seem to be saying, that you are fine with the match-up between cons and grens at range 10, so that cons have a range at which they can do something in the late game, but you do not like that the damage does not fall off between 0 and 10 like any other bolt action rifle. Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 09:50 AMVipper Messing with weapon profiles to fix balance might be an easy way but it also a wrong way and in the end creates more problems than it solves (see Penals). Penals are not a good reference to make your point because they don't have bolt action rifles, they have semi automatic rifles. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 3 Nov 2017, 09:42 AM Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 07:47 AMVipper If grenadier lose in patch at range 0 they will lose worse at range 20 because the DPS ration is smaller. Correct. But again, this is complete fiction and to me a completely uncomfortable amount of theocrafting, because we have to assume that cons and grens both are vet0 and grens have no upgrades (both of which will never happen in a game). We further need to assume that cons managed to close the gap without taking any health damage or model losses, which again is very unlikely unless smoke is used. If cons lose 1 member on approach, they lose and again, that is comparing vanilla grens at vet0 with vanilla cons at vet0, completely ignoring superior gren vet and upgrades. Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 07:47 AMVipper If the engagement is at 10 grenadier are better of in moving to 0 (and then retreat if things go wrong) since they will trade worse if they move to 20 and would have to move up 30 or 35 to trade better. Things will go wrong. They are certain to go wrong. 0 is only preferable to 10 if you manage to close in taking no damage (we also ignore moving accuracy penalties during trying to move in) but it's both a losing scenario, so it's not optimal. The trade is just less bad than at 10. I need to stress again that these comparisons are complete fiction since we are consistently ignoring that cons need to get to these distances first and they will take damage doing so and won't be dealing damage due to moving accuracy modifiers. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 3 Nov 2017, 02:11 AM Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 01:50 AMVipper The HP of each units is the same at all range. Of course they are, I never said anything to the contrary. But the fact remains that a con squad has 6 members and each member has 80 hp. A gren squad has 4 members and each has 80 hp. DPS is damage dealt per second. It does not account for: the health pool of the other squad (, target size, armour, received accuracy), which is higher for cons than for grens. DPS figures account for damage of the gun, accuracy of the gun, cooldown of the gun, ready aim time (and if they are calculated properly also magazine size and reload time and some other things I forgot the name of). The DPS ratios have the same shortcoming. Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 01:50 AMVipper The DPS ratio does no decide which unit will. The DPS however is relevant to the result of the the firefight and indication to what is the optimum range to fight a specific enemy. Commonly optimum refers to the best solution across the relevant interval/range. In coh2 for me the optimal range is the range at which my squad wins the engagement most decisively or trades most effectively, which for grens would actually be max range, not 0 (at which range the squad would lose). Maybe I am misunderstanding you and you meant "less disadvantageous" by optimum, in which case you are right, grens would trade better compared to range 10, but they'd still trade negatively and would still lose. Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 01:50 AMVipper The fact that Conscripts have more DPS at range 10 while having more EHP tent to also mean that conscripts will probably win most of the times at range 10. This is what I wrote "Back to topic: after a couple more games, I'm leaning more and more towards Cruzzi's analysis. Cons now do have one range at which they can actually do something in the late game." In their current state cons already win at range 10 most of the time, they will win more clearly with the patch changes. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 3 Nov 2017, 01:35 AM Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 00:17 AMVipper this a simplified DPS ration between Gren/conscripts in range 0/10/20/30 1.12% 0.85% 1.06% 1.29% A ratio is never in percent. I guess you're referring to this: http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare?utf8=✓&squad1=conscript_squad_mp&squad2=grenadier_squad_mp&commit=Compare The problem with DPS stats is that they do not account for: number of models in the other squad, number of models dropped, received accuracy modifiers, unit sizes or armour (only important for shocks) Jump back to quoted post3 Nov 2017, 00:17 AMVipper As you can see the optimum range for grenadier are 30 and then 0 while for cons its 10 then 20. This means that conscripts will have the advantage if the move to 10 but they will lose it if grenadier the move 0. So actually if conscripts manage to move to range 10 grenadier should then try to move closer and not further away. Higher dps does not mean a squad will win at that distance since it still has to deplete the health pool of the other squad, which for a con squad is 6x80. Grens have a higher DPS at all ranges currently, but they lose at close to mid ranges because they are up against a squad with more health. The dps a gren squad does at 0 is 23.05. It goes up against a squad with 680 health with a target size of 1.08. This means it will take the squad 680/(23.051.08)=19.28 seconds to kill the con squad. The dps a con squad deals at 0 is 20.58. It goes up against a squad with 480 health with a target size of 0.95. This means it will take the squad 480/(20.580.95)=16.37 seconds to kill the gren squad. Good luck with moving closer The exact distance at which vanilla grens (vet0, no lmg) pull ahead of cons in time to kill is after 27 not 30 (in the current state of the game). The optimal range (the range at which they trade most effectively) is 35. In all this theocrafting we're obviously completely ignoring superior gren scaling with vet and the effect of the lmg upgrade. Back to topic: after a couple more games, I'm leaning more and more towards Cruzzi's analysis. Cons now do have one range at which they can actually do something in the late game. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 2 Nov 2017, 21:52 PM Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 16:30 PMVipper What you describe is that Grenadier beat the conscripts only at max range. we makes the 2 units asymmetrical balance and is the exact intent of the "relative positioning". Thanks, I'm quite aware of this mechanic. You seem to misunderstand what I say and seem to potentially mix up some stats. Grens do not win at just max range. They win from mid range up, as is the case now and is going to be after the patch as well. Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 16:30 PMVipper Now the funny thing is that once conscripts reach range 10 its the grenadier would now want to move closer so that they can increase their DPS making things even messier. I think, the proper response would still be to get more distance between you and the conscript squad as it has always been. If you move to close range you enter the only range at which cons are able to beat grens (before the patch, both units vet0 and grens without lmg). I will continue to try and closely monitor my gren v con and con v gren engagements to see, if cons do trade too well at that 10-15 range out of a range of max 35. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 2 Nov 2017, 16:05 PM Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 15:34 PMVipper If you want to take that approach I have to point that: 1) That an LMG grenadier is T1 unit with PB 1 tect cost researched and a 60 munition upgrade and thus more "expensive" and thus it should beat a conscript which is T0 unit. Not really, a vanilla gren (without upgrade) beats a vanilla con as described in my post. The lmg "only" exacerbates the performance disparity further. Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 15:34 PMVipper Most of the issues with conscripts come from VGs and not Grenadiers. Cons vs grenadier is one of the most balanced match up of "mainline infantry". Partially true, if vanilla grens are looked at, then again, the new changes do not seem to completely topple the mechanics between grens and cons to me. However, the match up is only balanced in the early game, with vet cons fall behind vanilla grens. When the lmg hits, cons just flat out lose at all ranges (except 0 and that only in a world where both units just spawn next to each other without having to close in). That's why cons have no purpose currently in the late game other than bleeding manpower (of their own faction) and throwing at nades. Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 15:34 PMVipper The increase in DPS is not in "very close" range 0 where DPS is about the same but in close range to mid range (10-15) Sorry, that is my mistake. I will try to get into engagements where the increased dps between 10-15 would become noticeable, which might be kinda tricky though. Let's see if there is really that much of a difference. In: Lobby
Thread: December Balance Preview2 Nov 2017, 15:16 PM Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 15:15 PMMr.Smith Ideally, yes. However, I don't think I can find a way to do this. Or, at least, that was a long time ago when I last tried it, and I don't remember if I exhausted all options. I see. That's a pity. But awesome that you tried In: Lobby
Thread: December Balance Preview2 Nov 2017, 15:14 PM I like the ghost-bag changes. I'd prefer it though if it was impossible to start building a defensive structure when in combat. This would mean that starting to build under fire is not possible but continue to build under fire is. This would completely eliminate the issue of ghost-bags to interrupt the movement of light vehicles. In: Lobby
Thread: Conscript's DPS in the new patch. 2 Nov 2017, 15:01 PM Jump back to quoted post2 Nov 2017, 14:54 PMullumulu isnt a 6model squad with a 240 pricetag cheaper than a 4model squad which cost 240 to? 240/6 = 40mp / Model 240/4 = 60Mp/ model and a refresh per model is cheaper too That's not how this game works. Units are balanced on the basis of their performance. A gren squad has always beaten a con squad except for the early game at close to mid range. This would mean that a con squad lost more members of a squad for every member that a gren squad lost. The reason why soviets have a lot of manpower bleed in the late game is exactly that and how badly cons scaled. Units are balanced such that they trade effectively for their cost, not the number of members in their squads, that's why a ober squad does a lot more damage than a gren squad even though it also has 4 members. By the logic applied by you, rifles would be 30 mp too expensive or volks 30 mp too cheap because they are both 5 man squads I hope this is helpful for you. Back on topic: I have not yet seen that much of a difference for cons to be honest other than the much needed late game scaling at vet 3, which they do trade off for 5% survivability. The fact that they now have to overkill every unit due to the reduced damage seems to nicely offset some of the increase in dps at very close range. That combined with the fact that they need to get there without losing any members first. In: Lobby