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Thread: T-34 rework28 Nov 2020, 08:59 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 06:38 AMSerrith A unit does not need to have a higher performance level then another to be more cost effective. For 30 fuel less, the T-34 offers a SIMILAR level of AI performance. yes its an anti infantry specialist tank... the problem is it isn't even that good of an anti infantry specialist... Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 06:38 AMSerrith And it is certainly not "helpless" against armor. Yes its long range pentration is low, but it's still a 640hp medium tank with a 160 damage gun. Its not like you are getting an AEC. its helpless against any medium tank of its class... it can only bully vehicles of a lower weight class and that's it... Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 06:38 AMSerrith The best comparison may be the valentine. The valentine is stat wise objectively far worse than the T-34 across the board for only 10 fuel less. Yet the valentine was a very popular meta pick. This had nothing to do with its "cost effectiveness" but rather its timing. but cost does dictate timing... the higher the cost of a unit (which includes teching costs) the more time it takes to deploy and the higher the time in between units In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework28 Nov 2020, 06:25 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 05:39 AMSerrith I don't think you can use a 1v1 comparison between a T-34/76 and a Panzer 4 as a good way of measuring the T-34's cost effectiveness. I mean, the M4a3 loses frontally to a Panzer 4, and the M4a3 is DEFINITELY more cost effective overall. thats because the M4A3 has amazing utility and anti infantry with pintle 50 cal HE rounds smoke self repair... the T-34-76 actually has worse anti infantry than the P4 if its machineguns werent in play and without ram has zero utility at all... also the M4A3 isnt helpless against armor unlike the T-34 Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 05:39 AMSerrith If in a particular game you only need a medium for anti infantry and light anti tank support, the T-34 may actually be more cost effective then the panzer 4. the P4 actually has better scatter and ROF on its main gun while having more machinegun DPS if it upgrades to pintle... the only real advantage the T-34-76 has is its lower cost but this is also in exchange for being completely helpless against armor... Jump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 05:39 AMSerrith I do agree the fact that the T-34 arrives at the same time(or even later) then a panzer 4 is somewhat awkward, though some of this can be attributed to the necessity of building a T-70, while ost can get away with making 1 or 2 15-30 fuel light vehicles for a cheaper cost. If The fuel cost of T3 was reduced , but the fuel cost of the T70 was increased, perhaps we might see M5 quads more often as an early medium vehicle pick, or even just skipping straight to tier 4-thus allowing the T-34s to hit the field at a more competitive time. actually it takes more fuel to rush a T-34 than it takes to rush a P4... not only is it awkward... its also nonsensical... imagine if the 222 came after the T-70 In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T-34 rework28 Nov 2020, 04:58 AM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 09:52 AMVipper T-34 has great vet bonuses compared to other unit. The unit is cost efficient. Again it is not cost efficient... 3 t34s will cost more than 2 p4s but will lose frontally at any range... And again it takes more fuel/more time to get a T34 than it takes to get a P4 In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback28 Nov 2020, 04:55 AM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 23:26 PMSelvy289 The t3476 performance is fine and the ram was the icing on the cake.. Again the T34 takes more fuel/comes later than the first panzer 4 and is less efficient when massed than the panzer 4.... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback27 Nov 2020, 15:53 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 15:39 PMlovendead but in reality, rarely see it happens. t34 ram always followed by offmap skills i test a little bit, and i think t34 ram now is a trash the point is meganerfing ram like so just makes the unit pointless... it would have been better had they just replaced ram with APCR or something but nooo... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback27 Nov 2020, 14:43 PM the idea of the T-34 coming out later than the panzer 4 is absurd... no reason for the T-34 to come soo late imagine the amount of rage and screaming there would be in the game if we made the 222 come after the T-70 In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback27 Nov 2020, 14:31 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 14:11 PMSturmpanther When i look at the stats/ numbers i come to this : T34 cost total: T2 --> 160/15 T3--> 240/85 T4 --> 240/90 T34 --> 300/90 AND only 10 Popcap -->940 Manpower 280 fuel Wehrmacht PIV cost total (live version cost, not mod!): T1 --> 80/10 BP1 --> 100/40 T2 --> 100/20 BP2 --> 200/105 T3 --> 140/0 PIV --> 355/120 AND 12 Popcap --> 975 Manpower 255 fuel the soviets also have to pay for Molotov and AT nades aswell to reach parity with what ostheer gets FOR FREE Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 14:11 PMSturmpanther 1) In atleast 2vs2-4vs4 soviet can skip any vehicles and can rush t34. Normally wehrmacht goes for 1 251hft or an 222, which each cost 200 manpower and 30 fuel extra. a 222 costs 200 manpower and 30 fuel... but a soviet player would have to techup to AT nades costing some 125mp and 10 fuel as a counter and an AT gun on top which is 340mp... also Molotov is a mandatory upgrade for the soviets which is another 10 fuel and 60mp on top.... Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 14:11 PMSturmpanther 2) T34 is very good tank vs inf. Imo better than piv. Yes sometimes if you are clumbed wehrmacht piv hits too^^ arguable... the P4 has better scatter values ROF and aoe to the T-34... the T-34 only excels at closer ranges due to its machinegun damage... and even then the P4 can get pintle and outdo the T-34 vs infantry at all ranges... Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 14:11 PMSturmpanther 3) The next problem is not the first T34 vs PIV. The thing is, that you can get over the whole game faster, easier and more t34 than pivs, because of less manpower cost (55) and less fuel cost (30 fuel) and 2 less popcap for each tank. its still unfair as to why the T-34 takes more fuel to deploy/comes later than the P4 despite being outright worse... Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 14:11 PMSturmpanther Vet 1 stuff 4) You get already vet1 after killing 14 gren models for example, without getting self damage. 5) You get vet 1 already after 4 shot(hits) fights vs enemy PIV, without getting self damage. 6) You get also some vet, when you get damage from enemy. So you can get fast vet1 for T34. It is just to give enemy a chance to see and react, that you got new t34 to ram your units. So if you look close to this change, it is a very very small nerf to a very strong + cheap ability. soo basically now I spend a lot of resources to rush what is best a worse unit to what the enemy gets... yea sure the second and third T-34 comes for a lower price but that is not an excuse for the later timing... there is 0 reason for the T-34 to come later than the P4 at all and even less justification for the current nerf... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback27 Nov 2020, 12:46 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 12:21 PMDharx I can assure you that if SOV somehow had stock access to P4, T34 would see almost no use. 30 extra fuel is a small price to pay for the option to reliably threaten enemy medium armour without the need to spend on specialist units. @Sanders93 this is EXACTLY the point.... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback27 Nov 2020, 12:36 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 12:18 PMTomDRV "for the same resources and popcap, can I field unit(s) that can counter the unit(s) in question." yes exactly... for the same investment in fuel and manpower assuming the T-70 and the 222/FHT are skipped the soviets would be fielding 1 T-34 and a zis or 2 for the same cost as a P4 and a pak 40 or 2... and then you have to consider that ostheer still has pgrens which means SOV is gonna be in a lot of shit if they try to rush the T-34 without the T-70... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback27 Nov 2020, 12:14 PM the maxim still isnt that good imo... feels unfair to pay 15 munitions to do what other machineguns can do for free without an initial startup delay... at least make the ability free and activate instantaneously that ways maxims still have "micro tax" but at least compete fairly against other machineguns.... In: COH2 Balance