That's where you're wrong.
The Panther has always performed as a generalist tank vs Brits, and will perform even better in that role now that Tulip stun is gone, and Brits will no longer have pre-dug rabbit holes everywhere.
Secondly, Riflemen lost their smoke, so Riflemen is no longer the 1-unit army the Panther has to content with. USF will have to divest in other units, and there will be fewer riflemen with snares running amokk.
Thirdly, Penals lost their snare and Conscripts become squishier with the patch; their main boon is that they hit a lot more reliably. Both units will simply bleed more when a Panther is threatening them.
If I get this right is that you're complaining that the Panther has low DPS, yet has too much HP.
Now you get a patch that reduces some of the durability (with Vet), but not the important bits (the health bonus at Vet2 is still there), and increases the DPS.
Yet, without taking the time to even trial the changes you start complaining? If you know precisely which values we should fix, why not spit them out so that we can see them.
Otherwise, I think it's better we go with the testing-and-feedback approach. Don't you think so too?
I need to clarify a few things
1) I always tested any mod, including FBP, and DBP will follow
2) I have my idea of an indea rework that could fix a lot of issues related to axis AT armor department BUT I WILL judge changes as I see and test them, evaluate them and eventually give a positive feedback on those as they actually improve balance
"Now you get a patch that reduces some of the durability (with Vet), but not the important bits (the health bonus at Vet2 is still there), and increases the DPS."
I miss the improved dps, you reduced moving accuracy and increased scatter, and less than a second of reload difference should mean improved dps ?
Nah you just straight up nerfed it.
Further add that okw one will still cost 25 more fuel apparently...and only got nerfs because is "the best nondoc vehicle" (you know how much people laughed at this ?)
Regardless of testing, which won't lack, nobody see anything good coming from this change.
A good start would be: choose an intended role.
It would be great if panther gained much more dps, in both high accuracy (and moving accuracy) and rof, but gave up range, penetration and armor, for an anti medium and flanker/tank hunter role, while heavies could be countered by su86-like stug/jpn4..but that's one of the options.
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That's because we had something called Comet spam that was ruining the game for 1.5 years, and we're not going to add Panther spam to replace Comet spam.
The Panther, at its core, is a low micro generalist unit with high durability and good range and fast speed that can threaten all tank types and infantry. If you can't see why also having pinpoint accuracy on top of that will be an issue, I can't help you.
Comet spam was addressed just fine with moving accuracy changes and popcap changes (neither OP nor UP), and it will remain the same for the Panther, given the buffs it has received.
The main issue remaining for OST Panther, imo, is T4 teching cost.
Panther as generalist unit is BS..., the main damage dealer is paid pintle mg, that BARELY manage to drop some models.
Comet was a generalist because it had AOE that can actually kill infantry.
Panther is much less than a generalist than anything else including su76m, except jackson, we can say it is as much of a generalist as firefly...
Comet spam was because it actually had better mobility, firepower..and was a true generalist with free blitz and no brainer upgrade commander.
There are several ways to balance it, from reducing base armor to a complete overhaul
"Problem with OST panther is teching"
Of course, ignore feedback.
The panther HAS NO ROLE EVER, it's just an overarmored brick...
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FF and Jackson while having a good lifepool now have almost 0 chance to deflect a Panther hit, this is why the accuracy is different. Panther with a better accuracy would be too good as it would never miss nor never being deflected.
I can understand that you prefer a better accuracy over a better armor but this is a factional design decision making, one of the few asymmetrical design that means something.
It's a factional design decision nobody likes, from top 10 to 4000, nobody ever build panther, and when EVEN STURMPANTHER, of the balance team, tells you that "tier 4 is only good for Brummbar" how can they even write that "MORE OF LESS IS IN A GOOD SPOT, SO LET'S NERF IT".
"We made it shit because otherwise is OP" is bullshit..firefly cost less than panther, if cost is a problem they could even make panther more expensive to okw...but ost panther teching path is extremely more expensive than panther anyway.
Firefly has stun rockets, jackson has mobility, su85 has fast rof...all of them have more range (the difference could even become higher with panther having 45 range if it is needed).
AND OFC as I said, they could rework panther as fast firing vehicle with jadgpanzer 4/stug penetration, 45 range and make casamate tank destroyer high pen high damage anti heavy damage high range bigh pen and them decrese cost of panther at the expenses of stug/jadg cost.
Everything but:" it's shit and we can't fix it"
They DO CARE about community approval indeed...
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Great changes that will give more punch to Airborn doctrine, I just hope the P47 bombing run will be improved so the doctrine become viable again  I also hope the revamp of 3 USF doctrines includes the reco one. On the other hand, I don't know if the Jackson health buff is justified and will be useful, that's probably something we will discover once a new meta is in place.
What I don't really understand is the runt about panthers changes, the most important changes about panthers is the sum of FF nerf. The real panther'a nemesis today is the FireFly. Of course, we also need to monitor how the panther performs vs the new Jackson.
- Panthers have higher popcap but have better reload time. (armor buff was BS anyway)
- FireFly have less accuracy and less accuracy on the move and its tulip doesn't cancel move order anymore. That's a huge nerf for the UKF only tank destroyer.
What changes ?
Firefly sgoing from over the top never seen accuracy to still the best accuracy over any vehicle in game ?
Firefly going from best moving accuracy in game to the best moving accuracy in game excluding usf but better than anything else including 200 fuel "Tank hunters" ?
An antitank ability being nerfed in anti infantry collateral damage ?
I'm missing the point telling "jackson and firefly" will dominate everything , if there's any
Armor nerf, popcap nerf, accuracy nerf...oh yeah 0.3-0.6 sec better rof Op powercreep!1!!11 |
No one still spotted this small but very important change that may turn the garrison meta upside down and thus greatly impact the early game 
That's really a good change indeed. |
Way better as in the tighter reload (0.3 secs, as opposed to an entire 1 second of variance) will allow you to micro your Panther stop-shooting better.
Care to explain why a tank hunter should stop-shooting now that he has lost armor bonus ?
LITTERALLY WHOLE COMMUNITY said panther is utter shit, because of low dps, low rof, low accuracy, that armor INEVITABLY couldn't compensate for, so you decided to give a minimal rof bonus to it, nerf armor, nerf popcap, it will still misses up close...
IF IT IS SO "balanced and in a good spot" tell me the last time ost players went to tier 4 rather than go stug+tiger or elephant+stug in teamgames
ALSO..
I can't see all the OKW panther spam, maybe it's because it is 200 fuel it is getting in line with new ost panther, but will still cost 200 fuel.
....
Well I KNOW they can't be a one tank army, so please at least consider reworking armor department in a way stug/jadg and panther have reverted roles.
Casamate TD would be needed to counter TD and Heavy tanks, while panther could be accurate, fast firing mobile tank that can reliably counter medium spam and only soft counter high mp meatshield and heavy tank but has durability in exchange for lower range and armor and 185 average pen, while casamate TD get high pen and high damage but long reload. |
Ahahhahaa
So much true
Guys, it's ok to have a party and get high, but wait a little before working on patch changes. |
It forces the Soviet player to upgrade to PTRS Rifles to stop LVs if they're relying on T1 as unupgraded Penals can now do absolutely nothing to anything that is bigger than a Kubel? Which results in vehicles having far greater capacity to push dedicated AI squads and players know which squads to evade and not rush towards?
And such balance wouldn't make OKW even MORE luchs meta dependant ?
Why not simply target the fact that for 25 mp they get an insane early shock power with stv avaiable from min 0 ? |
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@miragefla
Well let's discuss about it.
Nothing of what you said really is different from my statements.
Jadgpanzer 4 has faster fire rate and better accuracy, but is limited from having lowest mobility out of all casamate TD, low pen and more than that low damage (which is part of the reason why jackson doesn't fire as fast).
Now new jadgpanzer 4 would have costed 10 fuel more than jackson, while being able to deal damage only to mediums..so if some player decide to field some pershing (300fuel) or is2 (375fuel). It will never be able to do anything but the cool visual effect of bouncing, it wouldn't be a problem if it didn't cost 10 more/less fuel (less with su85/jackson) than more mobile (all of them, including su) TD with more pen and more damage.
You are basing your balance on your assumption that most of the time soviets and us won't field doctrinal heavies, which is unlikely considering shock rifle/heavy cav ARE META...and allies TD aren't giving anything away but armor for more consistant dps,mobility,...for cheaper MEANWHILE jadgpanzer 4 is lacking in the intended role of anti mediums because apparently 145 fuel doesn't deserve a decent rotation.
Panther, well like shadow said, overglorified meatshield that become useless by the time you select the building slot. Saying it's dps is nonexistant is not an hyperbole at all, while the armor can't make up for it with 240-230-220 TD cheaper of 50 or more fuel hitting the field much before you even think about building it.
Now it EVEN MORE overlaps with stationary TD with nerfed moving accuracy (basically the opposite direction of what I would give, panther overhauled would be perfect as anti mediums spam) all for 200 fuel, so basically the most expensive TD in game can't reliably destroy anything nor chase down damaged tanks, thanks to the now nerfed moving accuracy.
Panzer 4 150 fuel
T34-85 130 fuel
Ez8 140 fuel
I think it is enough...
And don't tell me "scope" there is nothing in the unofficial balance patch that tells me you would change things other than give it a minimal fuel cost decrese and minimal scatter improvement, while it would cost as much as ez8 anyway and have a nerfed blitz.
Ps: all of this while raketen become even MORE inconsistent (NOW it does frontally to tanks at range, can post you proof, it will even die to small arms fire easily now).
@VIPPER yeah at this point it would be great if they stopped destroying OKW at, removed volks stg, balanced panzerfus (reduced flak ht fuel cost to less spammy/luchs and more combined arms early game) and focused on making okw armor not completely useless nor reliant on a stug-like crutch unit.
Finding a proper role to panther could be the start... |
Didn't realize there were so many people against the teamgame patch. I agree with most points as well too which worries me. Of course the issues with the axis heavy TDs nerf could be seen a mile away.
The point isn't heavy TD, which was ok to nerf and deserved.
The point is the supposed team games patch would have never buffed UP ost/okw armor like panzer 4, panther.. (yeah okw panther is a bit better, still utter trash at 200fuel), while nerfing a jadgpanzer 4 because of the veterancy THAT WAS A PROBLEM ONLY IN TEAMGAMES and increasing the price, basically nothing decent enough to replace meta.
Actual jadgpanzer 4 has only 20 more pen than ez8, modders completely forget that jadgpanzer 4 may perform well at vet 5, but 1vs1-2vs2 never see vet 5 and 145 fuel for a antimedium is totally unviable in such modes.
Axis armor is DE FACTO complete trash considered price (only katitof and completely biased folks can deny it), and new stug (which I didn't like when I played mode, already expressed my idea of casamate TD being overhauled as anti heavy in lines with jackson and firefly, and increasing panther dps for pen and range) could be considered "fixed" while being the crutch of ost underwhelming armor.
ALL THIS, while Heavy td (which have been teamgames replacement of shit panther) get "fixed" like stug
Add to it another allies TD buff (which could be okey if panther was merely decent).
ps:It makes me wonder why the hell the resource gained in teamgames isn't reduced |
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