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3v3 USF + 2x brits vs 3x OKW on Redball. Custom standard resources game, VP 500
Without the calliope, how does USF counter big AF blobs on lane-y maps (assuming you placed a couple of mines, upgraded infantry etc). The only stock option I can think of is major arty hoping they got scared and instead of pushing further, they retreat. I'm talking about really big ass blobs with A move raketen behind them. As soviets, it's real easy with katyusha. With brits, somewhat easy with base arty and cover + vickers. But say you tech captain, have AA HT and pak howi, major and saving up for Jackson or something harder, and you see a huge blob of fussies, volks, obers and 2x raketen coming at you in one lane. How do you react?
Now I used to be able to easily push back with double paks doing the Lord's work but right now, without the calliope, you're lost (tried back tech to .50 cal but gets shredded in a matter of seconds, tried AA HT but that s*** is so cancerous that it keeps spinning and not really suppressing anything + if you park it, raketen will eat it in a second). And if the blob doesn't shred you, and all of your infantry is behind heavy cover. The Stuka will easily displace you.
Played a couple of 3v3s just like that a few days ago on Redball. Kept winning early engagements, had dominating map control. All of a sudden, on your entrenched position you see 2x obers with IR, 3x pfussies upgraded and vetted, 2x raketen and 1x Spios coming at you.
I had 3x rifles with 1 or 2 bars. 3 mines (denied by spios). Captain with double bar, 2 pak howis, AA HT and echelons with bazookas + Pershing + major with zooks. Pak howis were spread apart by a distance larger than the stuka line. I saw the blob, immediately retreated pak howis a bit back to not be in line of fire. AA HT was just enough in range to suppress anything that closes in on the cover.
AA HT died in a second once 2x raketen fired from the FOW. I kept all of my squads behind heavy cover sandbags. IR obers shredded them behind cover advancing. Had to retreat squad by squad. Pak howis dealt pretty much no dmg on semi-direct hits. Then stuka fired, displaced rest of the squads from cover and I got completely overwhelmed. Pershing was completely denied by the Jagdtiger covering
Played the same game, against the same tactics (vs 3 OKW premade), only this time instead of heavy cav, I went for calliope and instead of pershing, jackson + AT gun.
Same sh** was pulled against me, only this time I was on the other side of the top fuel on Redball (bottom). With the calliope, it was an easy win. The blob came, I put down rocket arty and they retreated.
Is there any way to counter blobs as USF without the calliope is my question. |
While I agree that volks are the weakest, there's no way grens are the strongest. Rifles are superior, tommies are slightly better, and cons are superior too once they get 7 men
You could maybe say tommies are "weaker" because of no snare. But in terms of raw anti-infantry power definitely not
Yeah, out of the gate, certain mainlines win in certain scenarios.
Overall, grens are great, but are not the "best" since being the "best" is hard to define.
I think Rifles are overall the best, considering the amount of scenarios where they win (and why OST needs MG42 early on to lock down Rifles).
Only thing where rifles suck hard is the snare animation. A couple of hours ago, lost a whole squad trying to snare a solo F*****G P4 caught out of position. Had the greatest luck of all, that the pintle MG and the cannon were killing infantry in the order of model snaring. Literally for 15 seconds or so killing model by model, always the one that picks up the snare and aims. Fuc*er aims and aims and then dies, 2nd model picks it up. Rinse and repeat.
Other than that, Rifles are the best. Then IS, then grens, then volks, then conscripts -- Overall IMHO. |
You think the ost p4 has the same AI as an HE sherman?
Didn't they always have about the same AI? Generally? HE Sherman having shock value due to hitting generally smaller squads (vs OST) and having larger AOE (4 vs 2.5) but comparable distances. Meaning, the extra far distance you get with 4 AOE does not generally do much unless vs multiple squads? But to answer the question. No. HE Sherman has better AI than OST P4, in first shot or so, doublish. I won't get into charts and graphs and whatnot since I always question the validity of such analysis in a game which is pseudo random. |
Leig is miles worse than the pak howi though. It's not a duel okw will win
Depends on what you're looking for. Pak lost a lot of hitting power with the last update, nowhere near as damaging as it used to be. Leig is much more consistent and cheaper. Also, I'm not quite sure who would win. Leig bombarding pak or pak bombarding leig on close to max range/FOW.
Also, Leig has 1 RA, while pak has 1.25. So if you catch the pak, it's gone, even from the basic infantry. The extra man it got means s***. It's only beneficial vs small AOE indirects (mortar, somewhat Leig). |
On mobile so I can't give this the in depth reply its worth atm, but I want to come back to it
Mobilility is more than simply JUST speed. Mobility is also not be punished as harshly for being on the move. All tanks lose half their accuracy on the move. Except USF armour, whose penalty is halved for the most part. 75% moving accuracy instead of 50%. Additionally crew repairs lend itself to more mobile armour as repair infantry doesn't have to keep pace wherever tanks are needed. The Scott is the only unit I know of that can barrage on the move. USF infantry is all armed with semi auto rifles or SMGs by default which havs superior moving accuracy. USF is the only faction with a dynamic moving FRP.
Just like mobility isn't just moving speed aggression isn't just brawling. High mobility (see above) and rapidly returning units to fighting condition close to the front enables USF to push constantly, notably when the enemy isn't prepared or recovered from the last fight. There is a noticeable difference between pushing power between usf with all their aggressive and mobility traits and OST who is quite different for example.
True. Though...
75% on the move acc is not really something to write home about in anything beyond 1v1.
The repair crews are there and they do give a bonus, but again, until they are vetted you will have to use echelons to repair with them, who are the only ones that do not get any repair bonuses (except 5 man) with minesweepers. So in the end, sure. You don't need 2 echelons unless you go for Pershing but I've seldom seen tanks getting repaired outside of the base, with the crew. Scott being able to barrage on the move is not really a bonus anymore. The barrage got more accurate and less damaging with the last patch so barraging on the move is counter intuitive because you are losing the accuracy it should have. Again, I use scott in every game, never do I barrage on the move.
The argument "USF infantry is all armed with semi auto rifles or SMGs by default which havs superior moving accuracy." is nonsensical and will just skip it. Same argument could be said about many a thing, concerning infantry. Why this faction only has this and that faction only that...
Mobile FRP. Ok, it's not really mobile as you make it out to be.
A) It's super susceptible to any sort of indirect
B) The cooldown is quite high.
So yeah, it is mobile in a sense that elefant is more mobile than schwerer
You're stating things that are super cool on paper, but in anything beyond 1v1 really don't give any large benefits. If they were, then USF would be played much more. Look beyond the paper, into the real scenarios that happen on the battlefield.
A durable MBT is a no go because USF still retains the aggression and mobility but then would also have staying power on top of the rapid repairs.
I have played this game since before it launched, been through every META so far. I recall vividly the many moons of Panther spam to victory because fast and durable is a recipe for imbalance. Being able to out slug what you want and still able to out run your enemy when you need to makes the unit near impossible to kill.
That was a nightmare and they didn't have double rifles to support it nor the best 60 range TD in existence to back it up. They also couldn't self heal or eliminate the devistation of hitting a mine.
The E8 dominates p4s and under as is its job. For panthers and above all 3 allied factions have 60 range high pen TDs. The only allied unit that can reliably slug with big cats the the is-2. This is intentional and giving a mere self healing medium tank the capacity to do so would be game breaking. Even the comet was nerfed SPECIFICALLY so it would lose to panthers and its got the shittiest 60 range TD to back it up and also lacks USF supports and bonuses.
E8 wins vs OST P4 with about 1/4 of health and vs OKW P4 with a fraction usually. At least from my experience brawling with OKW P4s. It's AI is lackluster and once a Panther hits the field, even if you catch the panther solo with 2 E8s, it does not guarantee a victory (unless the panther is just standing there, not getting any support.... paper scenario)
So yeah, think man beyond the words on the paper.
USF looks brilliant on paper. From 1v1 to 4v4. Problem is, all of it's aggressiveness can be neutered by normal stock axis play. Not even some skillful tactics, just normal day-to-day play. OKW is much more aggressive and mobile. Having durable FRP and a building that can lock down an area easily. I've won against good players, I've lost against bad players, both with OKW and USF. The two factions I play only. One in competitive and the other in casual and I can with certainty say that for all the things you list here as faction traits, go down the drain once you hit real battlefield conditions. Both for OKW (from okw thread) and USF. Point is, USF is strong in 1v1 but anything beyond that, you need good synergy to plug the holes of the faction.
I mean, a couple of games ago, I tried to destroy the Schwerer that was guarding the bot VP point on Hamburger port. Had smoked it so it can't fire back, bombarded it with 2 pak howis, sent RE zook squad, AT gun and still it survived... with around 60% or so HP. I successfully forced retreat of the whole force, pushed the schwerer to completely destroy the morale of the OKW player in my lane, only to fail miserably because the pak howi deals no dmg, echelon and captain smokes are short lasting and the AT gun missed along with the zooks firing through smoke on it. It was repaired by 2 sturmpios shortly after and I got pushed back because I overcommited to destroying a single structure because USF lacks reliable indirects. Does not make it weak, I love USF and I consider it to be a GREAT faction to play, both fun and dynamic. But to state this BS about mobility.... yeah.... NO
EDIT: Point is. Mobility only ever matters in 1v1s. Anything beyond that is durability, firepower and staying power. And even in 1v1. The mobility bonus of USF does not tower over OKW or OST. It's more mobile, sure, but not by a large enough margin. Again. Only gives a bigger edge in 1v1s.
Think man. think!
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There isn't any arty imbalance, I don't know why that's in here. Aside from the non-doc rocket arty issue, the other stuff works. The panzerwerfer causes a tremendous bleed and is an excellent blob control tool. Honestly, as axis it's 100% your skill if you have difficulty in 4v4. There isn't a situation that you'll face as axis and not have an efficient and effective tool for the job.
Ain't that the truth. It's funny, the difference playing vs good players and bad ones, is that they don't utilize all stock axis units. I mean, the biggest turnoff, when in 3v3 you're playing in the same lane as OKW, is when OKW goes for kubel/spios. Absolutely cancerous.
Good players will use kubel to:
drive up to your rifles and displace them from cover by trying to run them over at the same time that the sturmpios are closing in on your cover position (echelons are useless in combat early).
By the time your 2nd squad of rifles is coming, you've already been displaced and need to retreat. Absolutely no counter play vs such kubel openings as USF.
On the other hand, bad players usually just leave the kubel to fire from a distance, deal little damage while you use rifles to mow down incoming sturmpios.
OST has early faust.
OKW has the same struggle against bren carriers but they do get their fausts online quite quickly.
As I play OKW and USF only (mostly USF), that's the most cancerous thing. OKW vs UC and USF vs kubel (or sniper) |
Thread: RK 43 7 May 2021, 07:18 AM
Meant to write 160+, my bad.
Fact is that OKW doesn't have AT squads that can be a deterrent to light vehicles like re double zook, Panzergrens or RE, but Raketenwerfer is the worst at guns against light vehicles, while being more or less in line with others against mediums and heavies, is another leftover of bad faction design.
TBH, RE zooks is inaccurate AF and usually leads to RE bleed + zook drops. If against decent opponents ofc, who keep distance and use range against zooks. |
Of course OKW has more played matched in these statistics. The total number of matches listed is a limited set of 39.988 and not the total amount of matches in the entire game. This is only about 8% of total matches according to the site itself. Obviously OKW and OST will have more matches than the Allied factions, because the 40k matches are split up over two rather than three factions. Because they are only a (top) slice of the statistics of all matches, these absolute numbers say nothing about their popularity.
The only thing that does is the distribution of matches between each respective side, which is about 50/50 for Axis and 30/40/30 for Allies, which can be used as an indication of faction popularity only within one side. The Allied ratio is hardly surprising because the Soviets are simply the easiest and most complete Allied faction to play, with all necessary basic tools available stock.
I'm not talking about popularity, just the absolute lowest number of USF in teamgames. Of course you're right but that was not my point mate. |
I too wonder what it could be.
I agree.
Also, USF having 11k games played in April, whereas OKW has 21k is... 
Sure there are 2 axis factions and 3 allies, but it's 3v3, not 1v1. And as long as there is at least one USF player in the game, then it's added to this list. 11k Only.... really sad |
Because the sample is simply too small and probably heavily influenced by specific players.
If you use the same number for all player that changes are much smaller.
Smaller? Goes from 38% to 43% which not only shows that the balance is heavily skewed in Axis favour in large gamemodes. Looking at top 200 only, this is further amplified. The number of games is smaller, but still large enough to see a pattern.
It is of several orders of magnitude smaller, the pattern, but still there is a clear outline. 12% is a large margin. In a balanced game, the number would go between 49-51% winrates for factions respectively. For a 12% difference to be in 1000 games, and 8% in 70 000+ games, then the balance team really really needs to get a good look at it. 1v1. Axis lose by a couple of percent, which means they need buffs somewhere. In 2v2+ they need nerfs.
You don't need to be a mathematician to notice the pattern. Hell, if you play 3v3+ you notice it well. Of course, in your mind, axis is severely UP, so I don't plan on discussing anything with you. Good day |
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