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To those arguing that USF squads lose their first model instantly too (which is simply not true, but whatever), do you not understand fractions?
Losing 1/5 of your DPS versus 1/4 of your DPS... which is greater?
Also, the HMG had a big, fat "2" in its tooltip while it was on the ground. My 3-man Pioneer squad went to recrew it. All three Pioneers crewed it and the Pioneer squad got wiped.
That's not a balance issue in itself, as it's just incorrect tooltip display, but there are LOTS of balance issues revolving around four-man squads and recrewing, not to mention other indirectly affected things, such as weapon slots and the like (i.e. five or six man squads being able to hold multiple powerful weapons simultaneously while suicidal four-man squads can only ever have one, even though that's the exact opposite of what would be balanced).
There is literally no advantage and nothing but disadvantages to four-man squads in every single aspect of the game.
Maybe, just maybe, if the four-man squads did INSANE damage to the point where allowing them to fire at one of your units at long or medium range for five seconds resulted in your unit being wiped, that would be properly threatening in the same way Allied units threaten and constantly wipe four-man squads by closing in on them while taking fire.
But no, clearly, according to Relic, Axis units aren't allowed to be threatening, so we have Pioneers that literally deal no damage, Grenadiers that can do absolutely nothing unless they're flawlessly in green cover every single engagement throughout the entire match, Volksgrenadiers that deal no damage to anyone with their base rifles, and Ostheer in general not being able to recrew anything and thus never posing a threat to squads that drop setup weapons or upgrades. GG. |
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The fact that the Schu-mine is triggered by infantry just contributes to this.
Expecting that aggressive enemy tank to drive over it as it tries to crush your machine gun crew? Too bad, some engineers just exploded on it and will cost like 20 manpower to reinforce, GG.
Also, it's interesting how no one mentions the Sturmpioneer Panzerschreck as AT. And it's not just because it's subpar in itself. It's because you can't actually upgrade Sturmpioneers with anything other than mine sweepers, and not because of the mines, but because losing one of their STGs makes them a worthless squad against infantry, and as OKW, you can't afford doing that just to get a single Panzerschreck. |
This right here is everything wrong with Ostheer, and everything that's been wrong with Ostheer since forever.
Instantly lose the first model at the start of any engagement, lose viable damage after losing a single model, have only worthless <1.0 received accuracy to compensate for lack of a fifth model, and can't recrew anything, ever, unless at full models and full health (the latter because the moment you recrew something at low health and get shot a single time, you've just lost the original unit that was left with a barely living single model).
There is no situation where the four-model squads are an advantage. They are a disadvantage in every imaginable way, from combat with other infantry, to indirect fire casualties, to chasing tanks, and of course, to recrewing and other such utilitarian activities.
All the while, Allied factions have UNWIPEABLE infantry because the damage sharing between five models is so insane that they consistently lose 3/4 health while STILL retaining all five models, then retreat and don't even lose a single model on the run.
To this day, it boggles the mind how three factions could've been added to the game, two with inherently superior five-man baseline squads and another with strictly better four-man squads (which can be turned into five-man squads, because why not pour salt on that wound?) that win against Ostheer squads even out of cover and thus without their damage bonuses, while Ostheer was allowed to remain in this sorry state.
And as if all that isn't enough, the UI indicators also show incorrect info and completely screw you over (in the screenshot, I lost a three-man Pioneer squad upgraded with Flammenwerfer because the HMG on the ground showed that it'd take two to recrew).
What an utter farce... |
Von has just won King of the Hill as OKW vs USF (Karl)
This is an incredibly harmful fallacy that I've seen used across dozens of multiplayer games for years.
MOBA players are particularly prone to this flawed reasoning by claiming that as long as a given hero's win rate isn't excessive (too far above 50%), then the hero is properly designed. But a hero can be literally invincible and instantly kill every enemy he encounters and still have 50% win rate.
My point being that you do NOT, ever use win/loss rates to argue about proper design and balance.
You use objective analysis of performance. For instance, the fact that USF Riflemen can close in on an Axis Volksgrenadier or Grenadier squad through an open field, running directly into fire, get into the same cover as the Axis unit, and win the engagement -- that is objectively incorrect game design, as it removes the need for USF players to use any of the core tactical systems in the game (TrueSight, cover, etc.).
By the same token, Volksgrenadiers do not do damage. They are not a threat, ever. Which is objectively incorrect.
Same goes for Grenadiers losing models instantly, having to retreat immediately from every engagement, and not being able to recrew weapons safely after losing a single model, and for how the 222 is an "armored" car that takes damage from rifle fire, but all that's not what this thread is about.
At the end of the day, there are objectively incorrect elements to CoH2 design, and they're all concentrated on the Axis side because Relic, like most WWII game developers, have an Allied bias and refuse to make Axis factions truly threatening.
Until Allied players scream in terror every time an enemy Axis infantry squad engages them, in the same way Axis players are forced into immediate retreat every time every single Allied infantry unit engages them, the game will remain a farce. |
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Are people seriously arguing that and UPGRADE (that costs munitions) is SUPPOSED to be weak and non-threatening?
When the enemy faction has BASELINE UNITS that are ten times more threatening, while your units pose no threat to anyone, ever, the game is a complete farce in terms of design.
This isn't even a balance issue. Balance issues require minor tweaks. The COMPLETE lack of threat from both MP40 Volks and Volksgrenadiers in general is a joke.
Same conclusion as with all other aspects of Axis faction design: Allied units are all hyper threatening to Axis units, but Axis units threaten absolutely no one, ever, under any circumstances. |
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I've been saying this for ages and continue to say it: upgrades and veteran bonuses are NOT the answer to inherently unviable units.
You have to make the BASE, default, vanilla unit truly THREATENING, just like Allied baseline units are truly threatening.
Volksgrenadiers deal no damage, and Grenadiers lose their first model and 1/4 of their damage in the first second of every engagement -- no threat whatsoever. |
Ok so I'm a bit new to some of the stats used in this game and I'm trying to wrap my head around it all. So most infantry in the game (excluding some snipers) have 80 hp and most have no armour stat. So one unit being better than another mostly comes down to squad size, received accuracy and weapons.
So grenadiers are basically worse because they have standard 1 received accuracy, middling accuracy/ low bolt action rate of fire and only 4 soldiers. So individually they aren't too bad, but they are just outnumbered by most allied squads of 5 or 6?
Sorry if this seems obvious, but I'm just trying to figure out why my Grenadier squads aren't that great, but Volksgrenadier squads seem to kick every kind of ass imaginable.
I think they have slightly less than 1.0 received accuracy, but it isn't nearly enough to compensate for lack of a fifth model.
So in the end, yes, the four model squads are a blatant handicap and unbalanced. It used to be balanced in vanilla CoH2 because Soviet infantry was really bad per model and needed to overtake with sheer numbers, but with the release of Western Front Armies the game has gone into full power creep, with all Allied factions, including Soviets thanks to absurdly overpowered Penals, being blatantly better than Ostheer, and somewhat better than OKW (mostly because Volksgrenadiers don't exist as they deal no damage whatsoever). |
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Penals are power creep. They're just one symptom of a larger problem that started with the release of WFA.
Neither the abysmal 4-man Ostheer squads nor the nonexistent damage Volksgrenadier squads have any chance against Penals, Riflemen, or the absurdly high damage output of UKF rifle infantry.
Relic doesn't care. They're biased in favor of Allies, as are most WWII game developers, and refuse to make Axis factions equally viable, equally THREATENING -- that right there is the key word here -- every single faction must be truly THREATENING, and Axis factions haven't been threatening since vanilla CoH2. |
i think he mean with the reduction to build them and the reduced reinforce they could be used early game to shut down cons and team weapons
Not anymore. Conscripts tear them apart now.
OKW is basically "turtle or die" now against Soviets in the early game, and even that doesn't always work. |
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The Raketenwerfer is blatantly subpar.
Infantry discover and kill Raketens instantly, even with other OKW infantry nearby to support.
Tanks kill Raketens instantly.
Artillery kills Raketens not just instantly but in ways that don't even make sense (shell lands near squad, not hitting any models, yet the Raketen gets wiped nonetheless).
And don't even get me started on the Mechanized HQ. By the time the Puma is out (since you have to bring out a Luchs first to prevent Penal/Rifle/Section spam from overwhelming the feeble Volks), the enemy already is about to get their first medium tank out.
So then you think, "Hmmm, so I guess I should flank hard with the Puma and use an AT gun in concert to wipe the tank", but oh, right, the Raketenwerfer has terrible range and still has trouble acquiring targets and keeping them acquired.
Then a second medium tank comes out, and the Puma is about as useful as a 222.
I swear, it's like Axis forces are under some Armored Car Curse, because how else do you explain both "armored cars" on the Axis side -- the 222 and the Puma -- being designed, tiered, and statted in such a way that they're effectively unusuable? |
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Storm Elite
migueloz
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Relic Entertainment
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