No, my mistake was assuming this was an Attack order specific issue.
Upon further consideration, I realize now it's a squad AI issue, specifically in how target acquisition works.
Whether it's an Attack order or an Attack Move order, the unit will stop when it can fire at the closest model of an enemy squad.
That creates fidgeting nonsense for LMG squads (and they waste a good third of their time not firing the LMG for other reasons besides), causes flamer squads to just be a waste of munitions a lot of the time, and makes SMG squads require even more extra micro than they already do by virtue of being short range troops and needing to take paths less traveled to accomplish proper flanking.
If the target acquisition were to be changed to stop when the furthest model of the enemy unit is in optimal range of the attacking squad's weapons, gameplay would get so much smoother, and it's not like this would somehow reduce the need to micro -- there are so many other reasons to micro, including getting into cover, positioning behind line of sight blockers, getting into garrisons, avoiding grenades and artillery, etc. etc. etc.
This means the units have to evacuate the house as soon as an opposing squad with grenades approaches the house otherwise they are guaranteed to take damage or be wiped. There is no counterplay except supression since you cannot kill a full health squad that quickly.Penals would be batshit op, so would pgrens, assgrens, commandoes, infiltration nades etc etc.
What are you even talking about? You already have to evacuate a garrison upon seeing an anti-garrison capable unit approach. The difference is that now you can get away completely undamaged even against flamers. That isn't fair. That isn't tactical.
A garrison is a strong point that provides suppression immunity, damage reduction, increased sight range, etc.
It has all upsides and no downsides currently, as flamers and grenades NEVER hit ANYONE in a garrison, just literally never unless you're at like below 2000 rank or something.
That makes garrisons have only upsides and no downsides. That isn't proper design. If you garrison a squad, there needs to be risk involved.
Also, if you'll notice, I mentioned how models exit garrisons one at a time in DoWII. That means you aren't going to get wiped, but you WILL take some damage from grenades and flamers if the unit gets in range before you start leaving the garrison.
I don't understand how you can think that's unreasonable. Staying in a garrison until literally the last second is utter trash game design, completely non-tactical.
It still boggles my mind why CoH2 literally degenerated from Dawn of War II.
Nading garrisons in DoWII is the best: you target the garrison, and as long as your squad is in range, the nade flies into a window, damaging everyone inside, and the unit inside sure as hell can't teleport out instantly because models actually walk in/out of buildings one at a time.
Likewise, in DoWII, anti-tank guns actually snare tanks, because they're a hard counter to tanks, rather than the CoH2 strangeness of tanks with turrets hard countering anti-tank guns.
So many mechanics thrown out for no apparent reason. And the garrison hopping is just one of the symptoms of this seemingly intentional degeneration (unless the devs that worked on CoH2 were somehow a completely different team from those who worked on DoWII).
Still absurd that the ISG had its range nerfed to hell but didn't get an AoE buff to compensate.
It's like a delayed, half blind sniper. Each shell can kill off max one model, and only if it lands directly onto it. Crap damage against garrisons too. The incendiary barrage is basically the only thing worthwhile about it now, so get ready for Feuersturm spam...
OKW should be mechanized Company but u need the most fuel of all factions.
This has always been absurd.
Add the completely arbitrary, artificially inflated build time that was just added to the Luchs, and OKW is now a subpar faction that can't even bring out MGs early enough to deny key areas.
When you look at the faction as a whole, the complete lack of damage from Volks is just the tip of the iceberg...
You seem to think that if you get into range then you have earned the right to hard counter your opponent and that they should forfeit the right to dodge.
...that is literally what tactics are.
Dodging instantly isn't something that belongs in a tactical game.
If you make the wrong decision, or your opponent makes the right decision, then you need to be penalized and/or the opponent needs to be rewarded.
That's how tactical games work. Garrison hopping, which is still entirely possible, isn't tactical in the least.
Let me see if I understand you. The exit delay is too short, but at the same time your unhappy because there is greater chance for door wipes. The only other option is greater entry delay, but that could also have a knock on effect of making flamers op in situations where a flamer is next to house at time of entry.
As to the example provided, it was a case of bad rng due to clumping and had the volks stayed in the open the outcome would have been different.
The whole point of adding garrisoning/degarrisoning time was so that you could actually HIT squads in garrisons with grenades and flamers if you got close enough to do so without tipping off the enemy.
That's still not possible. Even a single flamethrower blast doesn't actually fire fast enough, let alone grenades.
There should be a reward for getting close enough to a building without tipping off the enemy and forcing them to degarrison, and conversely, there should be a penalty for staying in a garrison to the last moment when a unit capable of countering garrisons gets close enough to use their weapon.
This isn't about wipe potential. It's about getting the game to a point where you can actually hit units in garrisons at least once when in range.
The core problem with flamethrowers is that attacking just one model with it is absurd. It would clearly make more sense to have flamethrower equipped squads auto-position to target the model furthest away from them in the same way they know target the closest model.
The same can be done for SMG-wielding squads.
Hell, maybe even change it to this for all squads. That way LMG-wielding squads won't do the absurd dancing and constantly halting their firing to reposition after every model kill from a stationary enemy squad.
So when it comes to flamethrower and SMG equipped infantry squads, they really get unduly penalized because of the way Attack order movement halting works.
For flamethrower equipped squads, they seem to stop when the flamethrower is just barely in range of the closest enemy squad model, which more often than not results in just barely hitting that one model with what is an AoE weapon.
For SMG equipped squads, they seem to stop at a terribly far range and thus deal practically no damage.
In both cases, you have to manually issue a move order, which not only adds extra micro requirements to squads that already require much more intense micro to flank and get up close, but also shifts a tough task that's usually handled by the game's AI onto the player: figuring out the optimal range for the unit to make sure its damage output is sufficient but that the unit isn't within the range that invalidates all cover.
This is one of those serious but hard to notice issues alongside the issue of giving vehicles the order to attack a particular unit, then giving a move order to get closer, and the vehicle proceeding to acquire an arbitrary target (if I recall, something was done about this, but not sure if it was totally fixed).
So now that we're in the post-support era of community patches, what are the chances that this sort of thing can be altered so that, upon being issued Attack orders, flamethrower/SMG units actually run up to enemy units and stop at optimal range for those weapons?
14:55 here shows how completely useless the changes are:
Degarrisoning is still basically instant. The delay is too short, and the way the exiting and freezing outside the door works, it just incentivizes the exact opposite of throwing grenades or using flamers on the garrison itself.
These changes have completely failed to add the level of tactical thought necessary. It's still basically a garrison jumping fest, just with the added chance of instawipes outside the door...
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Storm Elite
migueloz
Storm Elite
MarcosT
Relic Entertainment
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