Garrison mechanics. Which do you prefer?

The delay to enter the building is a good change, the delay to exit is bad and buggy.

When exiting the building you have to wait for a few seconds while they all funnel out of the building where you can't issue any orders to the squad. This is incredibly frustrating for the user, and also makes moves like dodging grenades and arty much harder. I want to rage quit every time I tell an almost dead mg to leave a house, and it ignores my next retreat command and starts setting up right outside the door

I think most of the garrison problems are solved with the loading delay, exiting should be instant like before.

Instant editing will make the entire squad blob directly on top or each other, which is the last thibg you want when trying ti didge explosives.

There is an option that seems ti orevent unloads happening too soon adter loads, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything

Thing I hate in new mechanic that ATM you enter the building your unit kinda disappears for a moment: you loosing any sight around it.

The reason I despise the new changes is because it improves one aspect of the game negligibly and that is in the area of house hopping, but at the same time adding a layer of frustration to areas that previously were not a problem.

In all my thousands of Coh2 games I never considered house hopping to be such an issue that it had a negative impact on my gaming experience. It was simply a non issue.

Some people will undoubtedly point to grenades and morters being ineffective against houses because squads can just exit and re-enter but to me it seems many people want to hard counter units in buildings with little effort and little skill. Personally I think this just further justifies indirect fire and I see that as a detriment to the game.

and putting a sqquad inside a house is the pitomy of skill i presume?

Any word on the bug where an mg leaves the house, ignores any other command and just sets up and basically wastes a 260ish mp unit?

Any word on the bug where an mg leaves the house, ignores any other command and just sets up and basically wastes a 260ish mp unit?

Issue a degarisson command further away so that the mg wont have time to stop and setup.

Issue a degarisson command further away so that the mg wont have time to stop and setup.

This didn't happen before dbp, so why now? I mean if a lot is going on this change means an auto lost mg. Why? lol

This didn't happen before dbp, so why now? I mean if a lot is going on this change means an auto lost mg. Why? lol

I think that's been in the game for a good while. I can only recall it happening once to myself, but it was for sure pre-Live. Von setup his MG right outside the front door of a house on stream, allowing it to get stolen. A few other chat members chimed in that the bug has been there since release.

I think that's been in the game for a good while. I can only recall it happening once to myself, but it was for sure pre-Live. Von setup his MG right outside the front door of a house on stream, allowing it to get stolen. A few other chat members chimed in that the bug has been there since release.

In my understanding it is not a bug, it is just the fact that idle mgs set up at the sight of enemy to fire at him. If you unload your squad in the "panic" way, that is by pressing unload button in the buidling menu, the unit ends up in the idle state and it will start to fire at the enemy (or set up to do so) at this very moment, before you are able to select it, even with best micro. I don't know why people consider this a bug, especially as there is an "alternative" way of exiting buildings that is actually the preferred one.

Buidling changes don't change this "bug" becouse still the squad is leaving either idle or with a move command and still there is no chance to give an order to idle mg before it starts to set up on sight of enemy.

14:55 here shows how completely useless the changes are:



Degarrisoning is still basically instant. The delay is too short, and the way the exiting and freezing outside the door works, it just incentivizes the exact opposite of throwing grenades or using flamers on the garrison itself.

These changes have completely failed to add the level of tactical thought necessary. It's still basically a garrison jumping fest, just with the added chance of instawipes outside the door...

and putting a sqquad inside a house is the pitomy of skill i presume?

I presume you meant this :

epitome

noun
1.
a person or thing that is a perfect example of a particular quality or type.
"she looked the epitome of elegance and good taste"
synonyms: personification, embodiment, incarnation, paragon;

Furthermore, no one has issues with putting units into houses, rather the issue is in regard to the delay when leaving the house and the short delay in regaining control of the unit exiting the house.

Your reply is ill informed, nonsensical and essentially nothing more than trollish gibberish.

14:55 here shows how completely useless the changes are:
Degarrisoning is still basically instant. The delay is too short, and the way the exiting and freezing outside the door works, it just incentivizes the exact opposite of throwing grenades or using flamers on the garrison itself.

These changes have completely failed to add the level of tactical thought necessary. It's still basically a garrison jumping fest, just with the added chance of instawipes outside the door...

Let me see if I understand you. The exit delay is too short, but at the same time your unhappy because there is greater chance for door wipes. The only other option is greater entry delay, but that could also have a knock on effect of making flamers op in situations where a flamer is next to house at time of entry.

As to the example provided, it was a case of bad rng due to clumping and had the volks stayed in the open the outcome would have been different.

Let me see if I understand you. The exit delay is too short, but at the same time your unhappy because there is greater chance for door wipes. The only other option is greater entry delay, but that could also have a knock on effect of making flamers op in situations where a flamer is next to house at time of entry.

As to the example provided, it was a case of bad rng due to clumping and had the volks stayed in the open the outcome would have been different.

The whole point of adding garrisoning/degarrisoning time was so that you could actually HIT squads in garrisons with grenades and flamers if you got close enough to do so without tipping off the enemy.

That's still not possible. Even a single flamethrower blast doesn't actually fire fast enough, let alone grenades.

There should be a reward for getting close enough to a building without tipping off the enemy and forcing them to degarrison, and conversely, there should be a penalty for staying in a garrison to the last moment when a unit capable of countering garrisons gets close enough to use their weapon.

This isn't about wipe potential. It's about getting the game to a point where you can actually hit units in garrisons at least once when in range.

Actually I believe the intent was to reduce house hopping to some degree or make it less effective and to make it slightly easier to assault houses.

The whole point of adding garrisoning/degarrisoning time was so that you could actually HIT squads in garrisons with grenades and flamers if you got close enough to do so without tipping off the enemy.

Wrong. The point of the change was not to make grenades in garrisons undodgeable nor was it intended that flamethrowers be guaranteed one successful burst. The changes are meant to make the squad in the house give up the garrison for a longer period of time when dodging counters, thus allowing the attacking squads a chance to take the house.

That's still not possible. Even a single flamethrower blast doesn't actually fire fast enough, let alone grenades.

You seem to think that if you get into range then you have earned the right to hard counter your opponent and that they should forfeit the right to dodge. Squads in garrisons should still be afforded the same opportunity as squads in the open (ie non garrison) to dodge grenades or flamers, the difference now is you have to give you have to give up the house to do so.

There should be a reward for getting close enough to a building without tipping off the enemy and forcing them to degarrison, and conversely, there should be a penalty for staying in a garrison to the last moment when a unit capable of countering garrisons gets close enough to use their weapon.

This isn't about wipe potential. It's about getting the game to a point where you can actually hit units in garrisons at least once when in range.

Wrong again. The point is to get the squad out of the building so that you are fighting on equal terms or conversely the attacker may take the building and gain the advantage if the previous squad themselve do not have sufficient building counters. It is not about being guaranteed 1 free shot just because you got in range of the building. If this was the case then buildings would be a handicap and certain maps would make CQ weapons op...

As I said earlier, a lot of people want to hard counter units in buildings with little or no more effort than they would squads in the open. Flanking, smoke, 3 pronged attack and combined arms are just too hard, instead some people just want to walk up throw a grenade and expect a positive outcome.

14:55 here shows how completely useless the changes are:



Degarrisoning is still basically instant. The delay is too short, and the way the exiting and freezing outside the door works, it just incentivizes the exact opposite of throwing grenades or using flamers on the garrison itself.

These changes have completely failed to add the level of tactical thought necessary. It's still basically a garrison jumping fest, just with the added chance of instawipes outside the door...

In case of the building shown on the viedeo, and many other buildings with 4 windows at one side, not dodging a well thrown nade equals a wipe with many types of granades. That is why player who occupies a building has to get the change of leaving that building when he sees granade thrown at him.

You seem to think that if you get into range then you have earned the right to hard counter your opponent and that they should forfeit the right to dodge.

...that is literally what tactics are.

Dodging instantly isn't something that belongs in a tactical game.

If you make the wrong decision, or your opponent makes the right decision, then you need to be penalized and/or the opponent needs to be rewarded.

That's how tactical games work. Garrison hopping, which is still entirely possible, isn't tactical in the least.

14:55 here shows how completely useless the changes are

the misplay was aiming the grenade at the centre if the building rather than the door of the building.

Had that not been a flamer squad, the attacker could have stolen the building by queueing up in front of the door while the enemy squad was leaving. That's because squads exiting buildings cannot reemter them at the same time.

Finally, 4 man squads enter/exit leave buildings faster than bigger squads.

Those were the highest delay values relic allowed us to use, due to the early reactions the original changes received...

It still boggles my mind why CoH2 literally degenerated from Dawn of War II.

Nading garrisons in DoWII is the best: you target the garrison, and as long as your squad is in range, the nade flies into a window, damaging everyone inside, and the unit inside sure as hell can't teleport out instantly because models actually walk in/out of buildings one at a time.

Likewise, in DoWII, anti-tank guns actually snare tanks, because they're a hard counter to tanks, rather than the CoH2 strangeness of tanks with turrets hard countering anti-tank guns.

So many mechanics thrown out for no apparent reason. And the garrison hopping is just one of the symptoms of this seemingly intentional degeneration (unless the devs that worked on CoH2 were somehow a completely different team from those who worked on DoWII).

...that is literally what tactics are.

Dodging instantly isn't something that belongs in a tactical game.

If you make the wrong decision, or your opponent makes the right decision, then you need to be penalized and/or the opponent needs to be rewarded.

That's how tactical games work. Garrison hopping, which is still entirely possible, isn't tactical in the least.

What is the difference between a player with a squad behind sandbags reacting to a grenade being thrown by moving away and a squad in a building seeing the same animation and exiting the building. If you fucking say that the squad can just re-enter the building, then there is no hope trying to make you see sense as I have already explained (as has smith) that the grenade forces the squad from the building giving you the option to inturn take the building if you choose.

Nading garrisons in DoWII is the best: you target the garrison, and as long as your squad is in range, the nade flies into a window, damaging everyone inside, and the unit inside sure as hell can't teleport out instantly because models actually walk in/out of buildings one at a time.

This means the units have to evacuate the house as soon as an opposing squad with grenades approaches the house otherwise they are guaranteed to take damage or be wiped. There is no counterplay except supression since you cannot kill a full health squad that quickly.Penals would be batshit op, so would pgrens, assgrens, commandoes, infiltration nades etc etc.

As I have said countless times, you want to be able to hard counter units in building with little effort and absolutely no skill whatsoever, ie you want to just walk a squad with anti garrison capabilities into range of a house.

How much would a retreat button for garrisons help? Put it on the same grid as ungarrison and have it ungarrison the squad then automatically retreat it. No more attention required than retreating any other squad.

This a solid idea. The only issue I really have is trying to retreat low health squads from garrison quickly enough. Some will say exit earlier and that is easily done if you are constantly watching your garrisoned squads. Its when you are microing elsewhere and the garrisoned squad is attacked by nades or flames or anything that inflict high damage and you go to retreat the squad as you no longer have the advantage and you are handicapped by the exit delay.

2nd. Another idea that has been mentioned and would be ideal is implementing a cooldown to entering a house once you exit. Say 3 sec delay.

3rd. A setup delay where garrisoned units could not fire immediately would also be viable (maybe) but it would be difficult to anticipate all likely outcomes. It would probably require instant exit still for those instances where a penal squad/flamer (for example) was hiding on the other side of the building. Buildings shouldn't necessarily be traps.