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Amazing. 55% of current voters think Ass Grens are fine right now.
It never ceases to amaze me how incredibly biased and unreasonable people in the COH2 community can be.
Or maybe it's because they don't realise Ass Grens are horrible because they've never seen anyone use them? |
Use combined arms to fight, everyones yelled that at allied players for ages, and when axis has to use combined arms to counter a threat its basically impossible even if they have some of the best tools for the job.
Use combined arms vs Jagtiger, since JT can't kill AT guns right? Heck, even a single PIAT/Zook squad can defeat JT.
So why did they nerf JT? Cos the "use combined arms argument" doesn't work when a unit can't be touched. JT had way too much range and two-shotting tanks was way too powerful.
The same way Jacksons can't be touched with 60 range and extremely high speed. All other tank destroyers of its class get rushed/flanked/circle-strafed with relative ease and require protection/escorts - but the Jackson doesn't, and in fact is also the best at diving after tanks because it can get out so quickly.
"It doesn't have enough vision" is also a poor argument. JTs and Elefants don't have enough vision to self-spot either, but that didn't stop them from being problematic balance-wise. |
This is actually one of the main problems. When you duke it out tank vs tank, the jacksons really the only viable solution you can come up with non-doctrinally. The Sherman really can't fight off other mediums reliably at all, so everyone is just dumping into the jackson.
Even the m10 isn't great, and it shouldn't be considering its so cheap, it's like a beefy Su76, that seems.. worse?
Nobody makes shermans...
Nobody makes Shermans....Except everyone? Shermans are beastly AI, even better than P4s. I definitely understand the USF's need for proper AT - last patch even Tigers caused me trouble. But the increase in effectiveness of the Jackson has really been through the roof, and the small nerfs to its cost and damage aren't enough to offset how good it's become. |
Stop bringing a factual argument into an ideological one! Clearly the USF Jackson is OP.. .even if it doesn't win nearly as much ... as .. .OKW!
Nice to see you join the ridiculous-fanboi train dude. You failed to provide any proper counter-arguments and have resorted to stupid sarcasm and use of unrelated "facts".
Top players outplayed other top players doesn't change the fact that despite ulumulu's clear Axis bias, he does have a clear point. Using an argument as stupid as yours/Mr.Flush's would go like this
1) Dave played USF vs Talisman's OKW
2) Dave did not build Jacksons and that's the reason he lost
In fact, in that game Talisman used MG34s to defeat Dave's USF, does that make MG34 OP? Every reasonable COH2 player regards it as the worst/one of the worst hmgs in the game.
Basically ulumulu's argument goes like this:
USF Jackson is the best medium cost tank destroyer and has a combination of strengths which makes it way too powerful. It has very high acceleration and speed, which allows it to escape easily, and coupled with its 60 range, it can easily kite enemy mediums, premiums, and heavies, and if under-threat it can simply drive away because it's so fast. All other tank destroyers are rather slow, and most of them have no turret, which makes them very vulnerable to flanks/circle-strafes.
Having low armour is definitely a weakness, but apart from JP4, all tank destroyers in this category have bad armour. Most importantly, armour is a less important factor when you can outrange and outmaneuver all enemy tanks easily. |
Instead of the ussual Axis thought process of gravitating towards the heaviest armour they can get and cruzing to a victory with that, you should take advantage of the fact that the Jackson is literally useless vs infantry.
He will have most of his infantry killing force in the form of rifles/airborne/rangers, so focus on countering those, then the jackson is useless will get fausted/shreked or forced back into base.
The suppression strafe from Assault support is good here, combine with a very well screened Tiger to see off deep infantry pushes, just dont put in on the front line for the Jacksons to eat. Throw in MGs and infantry and you can be very difficult to deal with without Shermans or similar. Also think about using a Panzerwerfer and concentrate on units that are stationary (Support weapons, Capping squads, reinforcing squads).
The Jackson cant dive for a Pwerfer in same way a Panther might, because its low armour means its got a much higher chance of being snared, and Axis are good at snaring.
Jackson is ONLY good when your relying on your armour to do most of the work.
Exactly. Double barred rifles can slug it out with Panzergrens and Obers, double LMG or Thompson Paras are great elite infantry. Both Axis factions rely on armour to trade effectively/cause bleed vs USF infantry. |
Heres the thing with Ost panther: Ost is a faction built on varied combined arms that need to work together to maximise potential.
This is true in early tier infantry fighting, but it still holds true at higher tiers (tanks). THIS IS A CONCIOUS DESIGN DESICION.
Ost Panthers are not really supposed to be able to solo enemy armour, this is why they have a slow rate of fire.
Their 'purpose' in a combined Ost force is to fulfill the role that all other Ost units cannot, that is to chase wounded tanks and deal the killing blow, also to react to fast mediums putting pressure on flanks, or even on ocassion, dive a Katushka or Stuka.
However, they are not intended to be the sole or main AT for Ost, it should be a nice mix of other things. When you consider this, I think they do their job of chasing tanks very well due to their speed and armour, giving them great durability in FAST ACTIONS.
They are not best suited to slug outs with opposing tank destroyers, but this is the basis many people are judging them uppon (they feel underwhelming in this scenario).
You are Ost, you need to rely on Paks, thats how the faction works. It is not a fast attack faction, thats why the panther is a luxury unit to cover your big mobility weakness.
Going T4 really should mean you get a panzer werfer too (combined arms) and not necessarily spam 2 Panthers.
I'm trying to imagine having a Panzerwerfer and a Panther in 1v1 lol. |
Heres how my usual match goes: I run straight to a fuelpoint (as i know if they get it its essentially game over for us.), they greet my squad with the axis engineer squad, they completely rip me a new one and i have to fall back. By now they've taken half the map and hold the starpoints, and have spammed mgs in buildings. I try to smoke and throw a grenade at them, nothing happens except they lose a few healthpoints. Now they pin my troops and i have to fall back again. Then its just steady downhill from there. Even if i would flank the mgs my troops just cant kill them and they get wiped out. This game is extremely frustrating in this matter. Countless hours me and my friend have hit our head against the wall because it feels so overwhelmingly difficult to counter a single unit, let alone with other units supporting them. I've tried all of the advices here, none worked. Winning doesn't feel like an achievement since we either completely stomp our opponent and its evident they either afk or just somehow are even more terrible than us or then we just get annihilated completely. Even though my post was emotional and ranty i hope you can atleast try to understand where i'm coming from: I've been actually lurking these forums for a while because i was convinced that i was doing something wrong. I tried to look for counter strats or tips on how to do certain things (i.e counter german mgs) but all i've tried have not worked. It just feels like the enemy just walks through my units without effort, and if with almost 150hrs now i'm considered a total noob without any possible lack of sense about the game then damn is this game one of the hardest out there. I mean, 150hrs, is that REALLY so little? Not trying to rant this time just honestly a little surprised.
So im sorry i was not constructive enough, i understand. And im thankful to the people who tried to give me sound advice regardless. Just to clarify: I was not speaking solely about mg bunkers, i presented myself poorly. I just mainly struggle against mgs in buildings.
After 150 hours I finally became good enough to be considered a noob/very poor player. I think you're around the same or behind my progress back then, dude. I have 1500 hours in the game and I still don't counter HMGs very well. At lower levels of skill, things like MGs and emplacements see a lot more value because they're low-micro, low-skill options, while a Light Vehicle in the hands of a weak player is often just wasted fuel. I'd definitely agree with you that the design is somewhat problematic - the MG42s is a very noob-friendly unit, which is why at your extremely low level of play, Axis would feel completely OP despite the superior Allied infantry and artillery.
Infantry Sections (your faction infantry) is the best mainline in the game in pure infantry combat - you should never ever struggle against Pioneers. If you're losing to Sturmpioneers that's normal, but then the whole complaint about MG42 shouldn't exist. A replay would probably help us to understand all the mistakes you're making. |
jagd wolfe ullumulu hoshi and others axis defenders really guys? jackson now is so much problem for u? U talk about tank destroyers spam but what can else usf ? Pls tell me ? poor e8? or maybe pershing aka comet ?
Usf finnaly can do something in late game and its cool now i can chose airborne company and be calm because my only tank destoyer is not a paper anymore.
Someone said jagpanzer is weak because 180 penetration, u know even something with 150 penetration can easliy penetrate evry alies tank and maybe only is2 is problem but this tank is rarely seen.
And why u guys have so much pain for that maybe jackson can be one of the best tank destroyers, if u ask me firefly is better i have no idea why this noob ulumule make thread about usf but no about brits but nevermind
This one tank must handle usf late game and so pls dont talk bullshit like someone said usf has bazzokas and at gun so dont need good tank destroyer jesus what a joke
jp4 will win with jackson because egist something like reload time and if im not wrong jp4 fire faster
Even if jackson is better that jp4 then okw have many other late game options
jackson have so many tasks, fight with medium fight with heavy and now its finnaly posible
USF used to be my worst faction. Post-patch I'm only losing USF games vs top 50 to 80 Wehrmacht players and USF is my highest ranked and highest win-rate faction, so I wouldn't quite consider myself as an "Axis defender". Unlike you, I play all factions, which gives me a more balanced perspective.
My weakness with Soviets is that often my SU85s get circle-strafed or start derping because of a branch or a pebble. The Jackson, however, is truly a perfect tank destroyer. Costs slightly more than SU85 but it isn't a slow and clumsy pathing nightmare. P4/Stugs flanking me? Nvm I'll run away haha. No other tank destroyer has such an easy time getting out of dangerous situations - which is the whole argument the other side is making.
The argument isn't that the USF doesn't deserve an excellent tank destroyer. It's simply that the Jackson's combination of stats - penetration, range, and speed/acceleration are simply too good for its cost. And this combination is far more valuable than raw DPS because only noobs like "some one" will stand still and let Stugs 1vs1 his M36. Any decent and reasonable player simply abuses the combination of range and speed to kite any and all Axis vehicles to death.
In fact, no other tank destroyer has that combination of strengths - SU85 and JP4 have better dps but are slow-rotating pathing idiots. Sure, jp4 has good front armour - but with such great speed, the Jackson either doesn't get hit or can easily escape if it needs to. Pre-patch Firefly was easily the best tank destroyer in the game because its combination of skills - high pen, bonus damage, OP stun rockets was way too ridiculous for its cost. To be fair in evaluation, the Jackson definitely isn't in that same spot of "Super OP" - but it's clearly the no 1 Tank Destroyer in the game right now. |
The JPIV wasnt even changed besides its camo ability. Its just as good as the jackson.
The weakness of the jackson is its non existent armor, an ostwind can fight it pretty well.
Meanwhile the JP IV and most other expensive TDs have some armor.
JPIV has 230 armor
The Jackson has 130.
This also means that the jackson is vaulnerable to mortar rounds more so than any other tank, as well as light cannons (222 20mm, AAA cannons in general.)
(Also the JP IV fires about 20% faster.)
By "just as good as the Jackson" do you happen to mean significantly lower penetration, slow rotation, no turret, and vastly inferior mobility stats?
The jp4's frontal armour is very good, that we all know. What's strange is you implying that the Jackson is somehow vulnerable to flak vehicles - it's almost as if the Jackson weren't already a hard counter to those vehicles. |
1) Press Start COH2 button.
2) Press custom game with cheat mod
3) chose jackson and p4 rush to Jackson
4) Make some 4-5 tests in cheat mode
5) return here to discuss
until u post videos where Jackson wins 1 vs 1 vs Jp4, Stug, P4s, Panther . 5 time in a row with Fog of War - there is nothing to discuss.
You're even more biased and ridiculous than ulumulu dude. Rush in against a stationary Jackson? Using such an inaccurate and dishonest example puts you even worse than ulumulu. The whole idea of the Jackson is that it's hard to catch a Jackson cos he's faster, and you can't outrange him cos he's 60 range. Designing a test which removes all of the Jackson's strengths is completely dishonest.
Using your ridiculous logic:
1) Create custom game
2) Choose Volksgrenadiers and rush to Soviet sniper
3) See who wins
4) Conclusion: Sniper sux, Volks OP
A T70 can kill a Jagtiger if you rush it in and circle strafe it. That doesn't prove shite, does it? In fact, I've lost a Stug to a Stuart and I've used an AEC to kill a jp4. Still doesn't prove shite. You don't make stationary, fish-tank battles between units with radically different combat roles because the chances of them happening in-game are extremely slim.
Fyi I don't even think/agree that the Jackson is OP. Probably a bit too good, but not to the point of serious imbalance. At first I thought ulumulu was the most biased and ridiculous guy around, but you just sniped number 1 spot from him. |
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