Depends on how you see it.
Penals have been super weak for a long time till Relic decided to make them better. Still if Penals are superior to Volks, OKW have an easy access to two counters. P2 and HMGs while it is not true for Soviet.
The .50 is quite good but locked behind T1, build a .50 and you'll face a P2. And the .50 as good as it is doesn't suppress that fast and doesn't kill that much. I have seen countless of time a volks squad crawling till lavanade range.
Incendiary nade cost is nothing since it gives you an edge vs any other infantry at mid range. You say the OKW player lose 25mp and 30fuel but you lose one or two points and Volks can build their own cover on the mean time so the next time when you come back to take back your ground, maybe you are facing a 4men squad but they are in green cover and you can't reach mid range or they'll send you a new lavanade.
This + I have almost never see a lavanade not taking a model when landing.
To be fair, I think .50s are the least likely allied mg for that (frontal lavanades) to happen (besides the dshka of course).
I think that the incendiary nade coupled with the cheap cost of stgs (half that of double bars while still being serviceable into lategame) means that they're way too spammable on top of what you said. And yeah it's basically guaranteed damage even against the quickest of players. I often find myself with upwards of 200 muni floating by the time I get a squad of obers out with full stgs and a schreck in most games too.
Volks are also a lot less to reinforce than rifles. Almost the same difference between them and rangers without that much performance disparity IMO. The phrase "has to vet to be effective later on" applies to all infantry though lol.
Completely different point but I'm pretty sure that usf doesn't have one thing nondoctrinally that okw doesn't have nondoctrinally, but it's not even close when you flip it the other way around.
Actually usf has smoke and Scott but that's literally it. Meanwhile usf needs doctrine for kubel analogue, flamers (okw too but they have lavanades), normal accessible mines, stuka analogue, kt analogue, obers analogue, panther analogue, having both an mg and an atgun without backteching (AB doc), even sandbags (lmao). |
Yeah, this is why I completely quit playing team games (including 2v2). Early game is nice, fun skirmishes with inf and light vehicles, but when it gets to mid-late game, all unit micro and infantry skirmishing is just thrown out of the window, and it becomes a game of who gets luckier with RNG mortar/offmap arty/rocket arty/strafe plane/howitzer/other indirect cancer. Your infantry have about 2 seconds of time to fight until they have to retreat due to taking too much damage from indirect. If you're unlucky, they get wiped immediately right there. It's not fun to me in the least. Infantry that need to stop to fire (LMG grens for example) are especially vulnerable to getting random wiped.
Thankfully, 1v1 doesn't have this problem because investing in heavy indirect means risking total loss of map control due to sacrificing from capping power and direct engagements. The game is more mobile by necessity, not some attrition warfare where lucky RNG wipes determine the victor. Those beautiful vetted up units really get to shine because they aren't being barraged by 5 mortars continuously.
Yeeeeep. I only add teamgames for more 1v1 vetoes |
Sim city - OP or Not. It's microless cheese that does not support coh2 Style and gameplay.
Having push button abilities to counter/self repair/brace etc that take virtually no skill is terrible design.
It creates a boring static gameplay and usually results in an artillery fest.
Wipes OH grens with ease.
Should be redesigned/completely removed
Knowing how half of you play. Removing sim city or nerfing it would remove 40% of the player base.
Ofc it should be changed. Too bad relic is done with the game (except dolphin skins 0.o). I'm all for brits having a not stupid version of emplacements or something else entirely, especially since that would give them a fuller unit roster (as right now it's either full mobile or full sim city or full get your ass kicked in most games). |
Environmental protection and nature conservation is a huge global issue and raising awareness on it is a good cause, but this from a company that supposedly has no time to even ensure proper feedback for a map contest is rich.
Lol |
Pfusi maybe, but JLI 4 man squads are by no stretch of imagination "durable".
Durable is the annoying 6 man penals running around with for mother russia throwing satchels 
Wait that's true I didn't process JLIs lol. They aren't really a problem (as a 4 man squad like you pointed out) except on value of being infiltration cheese (super good against snipers because like 2 k98 rounds and a g43 snipe and they're done). Also, screw for mother Russia + penals. I can't believe that hasn't been soviet teamgame meta for multiple patches. And then there's pfusies sitting at 6 pop on top of that too, which is insanely low for a 6 man squad of that caliber (1 more pop than REs IIRC and 1 less than rifles or tommies). |
Not everydays you run into this but the next time i will be sure to let you know how you advised work.
I did rush the p2 and almost ended the game,they called for a surrender but the brit beat me with simcity,so i am not sure why you would recommend me this.
Pit was close to bofor that the idea you see they build 2, and pit can get Garrison Bonus with infantry so that 1 royal afking, and they barrage ability which can do exactly what the supp gun can(only 2x time).And i clearly remember somebody here pointed out that Pit out-range supp guns.
This thread served it purpose i got what i need.Ty to those people that point out to me about LEFH arty,Zeroing,and Panzer4 rush vs brit.From now on it just a disscusion about gameplay.
About the isgs vs bofors and pit - what elcino was saying is that due to the fact that the bofors hit box is very large, an isg with 100 range can hit it even if the bofors is super close to the mortar pit with 115 as 15 range isn't that much, don't quote me on this but I believe 15m is 1.5 Molotov impact circles, do not that big, and certainly smaller than the diameter of a bofors. You just have to be careful though, as the isgs will be right on the edge of the pit's range. Once the bofors is gone (or even just braced) the sim city is easy pickings. |
Maybe they would do fine without STGs, maybe they wouldnt (obviously I believe they wouldn't, but its a general evaluation and not a hard prediction; after all, everyone has made great arguments supporting the idea that they would be fine). Either way though, I think there are better/healthier changes than outright removing them; THIS is why I'm so distinctly against the removal of stgs.
As for your second paragraph, I'd hope that the changes I suggested would address that. Flame nades essentially need to...well, not do what theyre currently doing, and ~9% less damage at each vet level decreases unit performance, which decreases efficiency. More expensive stgs hurts unit cost, which also decreases efficiency. To go back to the removing of the 10% acc at vet 1, I think it goes against how most squads get abilities at vet 1 and gives them increased early performance (and more performance for the entire duration of the game afterwards) that they just shouldnt have.
Less related stuff: the riflemen 1919s are basically equal at close range and obviously vastly superior at max range compared to their stock rifles, so theyre an upgrade in basically every case except for the fact that they cant fire on the move...unless of course you were making it an opportunity cost thing and comparing it to the BAR they could have had instead.
Volks not getting suppressed fast enough is more on the HMGs in question, really. Unless the HMG squad is in heavy cover (for the 50% damage reduction), this situation would be the same for any other squad with any other grenade. One thing to note though is that volks have a 10% less suppression received bulletin (which I run but dont really see anyone else run). Besides that, volks should get suppressed as easily as any other squad in the game (ignoring incremental accuracy).
That's true for sure. I believe that they have a strange role in their current implementation though, taken as a whole with the unit.
I think that the vet1 change would definitely make a noticeable (and good IMO) impact for sure, and it definitely seems odd that they get better performance at vet1 (which comes around the second engagement usually) while other units get say, tripwire flares or at rifle nades or increased sight or medkits at their vet1s. I think that would be a solid change.
Yeah the 1919 is basically a straight upgrade except for on the move (and maybe the fact that you can sort of circle/juke out the lmg guy in close quarters since he so often goes prone), but it does, in my opinion sort of change the role of riflemen to an extent, since with bars or vanilla they are supposed to be mobile and flanking aggressive units, but with lmgs, they can sort of function more as a hold the line type squad with a little less mobility and close range power. Bars and volk stgs are different in the fact that they literally just add firepower to the squad with no performance caveats or role changes of any sort. And yeah, the opportunity/cost case is there too, as it's definitely something to think about when getting bars or an lmg.
Yeah that is partly why I said maxim and vickers, leaving out dshka and .50, so the problem does lie mainly with the mgs for sure, but that was just something I pointed out as exacerbating the flamenade problem. One interesting thing I saw the other day though was that my opponent force-faced his mg to the other side of the building and didn't take much damage from the flamenade at all (it was one of those longer rectangular buildings like on langreskaya), not really related but it was kinda cool lol. I think pretty much everyone who has the bulletin runs it though, as I see it a lot. I think it really is a better benefit than some infantry bulletins like 3% faster reload lol. I don't personally have the bulletin but I might pick it up with supply points.
I'm glad that this site can still have thoughtful discussion btw. |
You're completely right with regards to how supported the luchs could be, and that I probably understated how effective the luchs is when allied light tanks come out.
Arguing that not having stgs could lead to combined arms play is pretty far off though. Kubels are only useful for capping and their vet 1 ability after 6ish minutes, which is probably the time/phase of the game were referring to (since thats probably when volks first start getting stgs). They really don't contribute that much dps, especially when squads on both sides are vetted.
As for sturms, its not as simple as having volks be "meatshields" and sturms as "damage dealers." In a 1v1, sturms can usually win in most situations against rifles and even penals. But in a 2v2 with light cover on both sides, with 1 volks squad and 1 sturm squad vs 2 penals or 2 rifles, the volks and sturms would lose pretty hard. Part of it is that rifles and penals are stronger than volks (vet0, no upgrades either side, of course) so im not adding equal units to both sides, but its mostly because of how focus fire works. The sturms can sit with the volks at max range, but then the allied side wins because sturms dont have as much long range dps. The sturms can charge and make use of their excellent close range dps, but then theyre crossing open cover against two squads in cover and get melted, after which point its 2 allied squads vs one axis squad. The tl;dr of it is that sturms do worse the larger engagements are; they do best in 1v1s. This means that this unit performs well individually and does terribly in combined arms.
For a more technical explanation of the above: the volks are sitting at max range, so they are using their max range accuracies and max range cool downs; theyre not contributing that much damage to the fight. When the sturms charge they get better accuracy, better cooldown, longer bursts, etc. but thats not enough because theyre closing in on and being shot at by two squads. These two allied squads get to take advantage of their decent close range dps. This means you have two allied squads doing their close range dps, but only one axis squad doing its close range dps with another doing its long range dps.
You could get both axis squads to charge, but then the sturms still get melted and have to retreat since theyre crossing open cover, meaning that the volks may make it across with full health, but then theyre facing two full health (more or less) allied squads that both have a better dps curve for close range. The situation doesn't change much even when the volks have stgs unless they also severely outvet the enemy.
Finally, the volks can throw a flamenade at the allied squads while the sturms charge, but if the sturms charge, they still get melted and have to retreat; the allied squads no longer have cover, but then its 2v1. If the sturms dont charge, then the allied squads can back away for ~10 seconds, and the axis player loses 30 munitions, after which the allied squads can go back to that piece of cover; its a resource win for the allied player. There are quite a few things that can go wrong in the flame nade situation that pushes the engagement pretty hard in the axis players' favor, but again, I think we can all agree that flame nades need at least some kind of change.
That's true you make a very good point about the whole combined arms thing. I think I kind of confused myself or something because I really was thinking early game (like pre 6 min) but they don't have stgs then anyway lol. I guess that's why you have the luchs and flaktrack and isgs and all that though, and I think that in their current state, volks would do fine against allied infantry with proper support, even if allies do have proper support as well, except for maybe penals (but that's a whole different problem. This is assuming that allies are supposed to be generally more powerful than axis until late game, especially in the infantry department. Alternatively, they could be given a different weapon than stgs that makes a certain aspect of combat better but in exchange for some other range being worse (like cons ppshs or riflemen 1919s).
Sturms in my experience are most useful after 6 minutes as a deterrent for allied infantry trying to close but that's mostly it and volks have their flamenades and stgs anyway and are much more cost effective. I think the problem if anything still just lies with volks being too cost effective in their current state I guess. And, as you said, flamenades. Especially when they waltz right up to a maxim or vickers and chuck a nade at it while under fire because they don't get suppressed fast enough. |
It's ok like that, mg34 is there to fill a gap, doesn't need to be powerful.
I think flak should be reworked like in FBP and isg should be worth something other than rng autofire snipe.
Okw doesn't need to become ost, it just needs proper bghq units buff with stuka team weapons danage/luchs at nerf.
+1 isgs are pretty good all around when doubled tho.
Kubel is way too durable and volks need to be 260 MP at least.
In 1vs1 command panther is broken because it's not tied to tech.
JLI and Pfusilier are too durable.
+1 |
But then the issue is that beating okw becomes as simple as countering the luchs. The AEC always comes at or before the luchs, and the stuart has an equal fuel timing. Meanwhile, brits would be able to stomp all over volks with double brens and usf would stomp all over volks with double bars. Obers just take far too long to get out, especially since you just got mech + luchs + (presumably) battlegroup + healing. Now, if the EFA/WFA rework mod is implemented, I could see the removal of stgs working since obers would come out 60 fuel sooner. From my evaluation, if you remove stgs from volks, then volks will become to riflemen/sections what cons are to current volks.
That said, changes I would've liked to have seen compared to the current patch is adding a fuse to flame nades, increasing stgs to 90 munis, and changing the 10% acc bonus that volks get at vet1. I think okw players should have to choose between spamming flame nades, spamming med crates, or spamming stgs. The removal of the 10% acc would mean that theyre missing 10% acc (~9% less damage) at all vet levels.
That's true but you still have fausts, schrecks, and raketenwerfers to cover the luchs, and not having stgs might lead to some more interesting combined arms play with the kubel and Sturm's dealin the main portion of damage along with the luchs. And double brens/bars usually take a pretty long time to come out, by which time you will probably have obers to do some stomping of their own. However, I definitely think your solutions could work too. Right now they're just far too spammable/cost effective and versatile for the faction they are in. |
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