I'd rather go with improving the gun, there is churchill for durability.
+1
If sections are too expensive to use, then what are grens? 0.91 RA and cost MORE to reinforce than sections? Mind your words.
It would be op if every brit tank was as cost effective as a Churchill. When u say Churchill is good, I think it's borderline op. Thank god Comet isn't as cost effective. I can't think of any tank that is as good or costeffective as a Churchill in the Ost lineup.
Grenadiers have better utility and the lmg42 which is why they're more expensive.
Brummbar. Stug. Don't complain that ostheer doesn't have cost effective vehicles. Churchill and firefly are arguably the only cost effective brit vehicles in this patch.
Also, haven't the mods warned you like 4 times to tone down the hostility? |
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Actually, I think the recon support bazooka paratroopers are fairly decent. When the camo doesn’t bug (almost never) you get a damage and pen boost and even if it does bug your paratroopers will still probably be able to fire behind the tank (if they were camouflaged and the tank drove by or whatever). They also are better bazookas, with more damage and pen than the normal version. On top of that, it’s still a six man squad and therefore a little less likely to get killed by the tank’s main gun (but will still die pretty fast to bullets until vet3). They can also plant real mines, which can, in tandem with the camouflaged bazooka troopers, kill unsuspecting medium tanks pretty much on their own. They also benefit from paradrop reinforcing with beacons.
With all the responses on the thread, I suspect I just haven’t been using the Thompson paras in the role they’re supposed to fill. I guess it’s a little personally disappointing but I do see how they’re a valuable addition to the faction in their current state. That being said, I think it’d still be cool to see them get a smoke grenade to lend a little more utility to them. That might not even be balanced though. |
In the source I have linked, the Thompson is not explicitly listed. It says "Submachine, Cal. .45, All Types" with 880195 sent in total. Of these, 651086 were sent to the British Empire (so that might include Canada, Australia, NZ and others) and 137729 to the USSR. However, the only other SMG the US produced in large numbers was the M3 (Grease Gun), but as far as I know, it wasn't used by the British or the Soviets - leaving only the Thompson.
Well I guess it really is the “Tommy” Gun then XD
And I’ve never heard of British troops using the M3 either. |
That is a good idea. But that does remind me of the centaur's insta delete ability, which doesn't suit well to my liking. If it is not an outright delete button like the centaur ability, I would think it is a great idea!
If it buffs suppression a lot more than it buffs damage then that would probably keep that from becoming an issue. Accurate fire from the quad .50 is probably going to be inherently much less damaging than accurate fire from the centaur’s 20mms since the former has no splash. |
I've been trying to use the comet more recently if I'm given an easy game or whatever:
Yeah I think it's definitely the combination which breaks the unit, it seems to pen ok when it hits but the amount of times I have watched comets miss for seemingly no reason multiple times in a row reduces it's 'supposed' dps massively, especially when against panthers of which it has a fairly high chance to bounce as well results in comets firing over 3 or 4 times with almost nothing to show for it. For a tank that is supposed to move and flank, you seem to get penalised for doing so, it just makes the comet not enjoyable to use. So perhaps a penetration buff may not be the first point of call to fix it.
With the prevalence of axis super heavies right now however, even with snares, with how much the firefly is set to improve, I still however think it's unlikely I will rush to use the comet without a pen buff, whether in raw stats or in the form of a munitions based ability, mostly due to the current meta. Although it makes sense for the firefly to be the better choice for fighting super-heavies, fireflies can get overwhelmed by panther dives easily, although with snares it will make panther dives a little less inviting so we'll see.
I saw as well people were saying improving the scatter gives the unwanted bonus of making it godlike anti infantry too. What about if instead of improving scatter the comet was given an accuracy bonus against tanks, similar to what the 6 pdr previously had with light vehicles?
Yeah comets do get penalized for moving. They have a -50% on the move accuracy debuff, so it’s best to hit stop just before it shoots. Problem there is that, as you said, it’s supposed to be moving and flanking and being aggressive. IMO it’s not even analogous to the panther in that way because you really do have to flank larger tanks to do any damage instead of pegging them from max range, which works fairly well for panthers. Their base accuracy still seems a bit low, so that may play a factor too.
Comets should be able to exert a decent amount of anti infantry pressure. Right now it feels like you just have to run away from infantry and even if it had better scatter, the AoE does not seem very large. The most I’ve ever seen it kill in a shot that actually hit is 2 models that were literally right next to each other. In reality, it’s not supposed to be “allied panther” but just a larger, better, more expensive cromwell IMO. It’s supposed to be a generalist, but gets beat by most other faction’s generalists in a lot of areas except health and armor. |
One thing about the Bolster Infantry Sections upgrade is that Infantry Sections are always the price of a 5-man squad. The price should be 224 for a 4-man squad, and that's a pretty major difference. The upgrade is mandatory for using infantry, partly because of the manpower premium you're paying.
(This isn't true for Sappers and I have no idea why when looking at the code)
Maybe something could be done with that to improve the faction?
I'm just speculating here, but it seems like UKF's main problem is that its units are highly effective in certain situations, but they have very little field presence otherwise. The mortar pit, for instance- for a pretty basic unit, it has to do a lot of damage to pay for itself.
Meh. I think there's much bigger problems for brits right now, and the only thing a cost decrease would help is the early game, where they actually do somewhat ok. A slight decrease might be reasonable, but again, it's not the biggest issue right now. If we want to complain about overpriced british infantry, there's infiltration commandos XD |
Cheesy or not, thanks to that ability, they have their own place among usf units. They are pretty much in the ballanced state: not part of the meta but powerful enough to create effective builds. Of course, they can be redesigned to some other purpose, but question is whether it is worth to fix what is not broken.
Maybe. Airborne could use some timing or ability adjustments or something though to make the commander more useful as a whole too. I still think that paras would have a lot more to offer as a stealth harrassment unit, even if they to lose a thompson or the ability, because it would help round out the roster in a much better way than "retreat-wiping unit". |
Thompson paras are build exclusively to use the ability that increases the damage output of their thompsons, providing very easy wipes. This is what compensates for all their drawbacks.
I guess that's true, but that's just so odd and situational, and maybe a little cheesy. Stormtroopers also have the same ability and have camo (thompsons do it a little better, but still). |
Um why is hoverbacon comparing comets with doctrinal units like ez8 and 76mmSherman? Yes doctrinal units are SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER than stock units in either performance, cost efficiency or both. He obviously hasn't played Ostheer as from experience ost p4 are just as inaccurate as Brit tanks. And he just mentioned the fact that comets and other brit armor can shoot smoke and WP shells non-doc while axis armor has just a overpriced blitz and doctrinal smoke.
I find that Ost and Brit tank accuracy is below the other 3 factions when it comes to anti-inf. I doubt Relic will make these in line with the other 3.
I’d rather have one easy 8 or 76mm than one comet. They’re better at almost everything except tanking shots, which is the Churchill’s job anyway. This including the fact that the comet is supposed to be better than them in a 1 on 1 vacuum since it’s more expensive.
Axis armor just has an overpriced blitz? That thing saves tanks or makes dives so much better, and the okw variant gives 100% on the move accuracy IIRC. While WP and smoke are great, blitz is by no means as useless as you make it out to be. The doctrinal smoke on ostheer and okw tanks is also better for escaping, but is doctrinal and fills a different role.
Yeah the panzer IV’s anti infantry capabilities are definitely nothing to speak of, the ostwind is clearly an AT vehicle, and the brummbar is just absolutely terrible against infantry. Also, what’s a pintle mg42? It must suck (Sarcasm, if you couldn’t tell). |
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Disclaimer: this is mostly from memory, so if anyone has hard stats that say otherwise, please correct me.
The whole problem with paratroopers (IMO) lies with their received accuracy. They have a target size of 1, which isn't horrendous, but is larger than pretty much every other unit (axis and allied) on the field by the time they come (3cp) including even your mainline infantry. Even freaking conscripts at this point are more survivable with vet (IIRC). They also don't get RA buffs until vet3, which hurts their scaling a fair amount.
This is all balanced and fair for the 1919 upgrade, but the reason it's a "dilemma" is because the thompson upgrade is nearly useless, especially considering that rangers also have thompsons and are much more durable, making them all around better. Make paratrooper RA better, though, and you make them too OP with the 1919 upgrade, as a six man squad with lmgs that is also fairly durable would be too much.
Instead, giving thompson paras some other utility like decent camouflage (like commandos have, assuming stormtroopers ever get the same thing) would go a long way to helping them. Even just a smoke grenade or sprint would make them able to fill their role much better. Another option would be to give them an ability like the coh1 british commandos had that popped a smoke grenade and gave them temporary camo, but shared a cooldown with their grenade.
However, I think having bona fide camouflage with the thompson upgrade is the best option. They are supposed to be a unit that can harass behind enemy lines, but they have nothing to aid in that besides reinforcement beacons, which, while very useful, aren't any good if you can't hide away or safely disengage from enemy troops. Either of those camouflage options would go a long way to improving their useability, allowing them to ambush other units to compensate for their large RA.
One might think, "Wait, wouldn't a six man squad with 4 thompsons put out too much dps to be given any sort of camo?", but every other faction besides USF has access to some unit that can utilize camouflage to perform in this manner. Ostheer has stormtroopers, brits have commandos, soviets have partisans, and okw have fallschirmjagers. If you run through all those units, all have qualities that are analogous to thompson paratroopers' performance:
Commandos are five man squads with smaller RAs than paras and have amazing close range dps as well as an ambush bonus sprint, and the light gammon bomb.
Stormtroopers have an even smaller RA to make up for being four men and have 4 stgs (when upgraded) with tactical assault and bundled nades (revamp patch would give them 4 mp40s with better close range dps but less mid/far dps, more like commando stens) and can be called in from buildings (of dubious usefulness now but much better with mp40s right out the gate as in the revamp patch.
Fallschirmjagers have fg42s, which (I believe) have the best overall dps curve out of all the weapons mentioned here and still perform well in close range, as well as a smaller RA to compensate for being four men, bundled nades, and a DOT/slow/smoke chemical grenade.
Partisans are a bit of an outlier, are at least somewhat cheap and spammable and come out of buildings with smgs (I think; I've never even used them) and have an at variant. They're also soviets, so less man-for-man performance is to be expected.
So the only thing that really sets paratroopers apart is that they have 6 men but die much faster to compensate. |
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