Because they are at ober level when they have brens. Putting them over ober level is probably just too much. Its not like theyre only slightly better than tommies, and its not like I actually suggested putting their rifle + bren performance worse than their current sten + bren performance.
While I do agree 100% with you, aren't they similar in cost? Also, aren't ober rifles a lot better than tommy rifles, especially on the move? I'm not sure about this, but don't obers also get better veterancy bonuses overall? Commandos are also doctrinal while obers are not, and are the only elite infantry squad brits have (actually, they're the only other combat infantry brits have besides tommies too). The thing that mostly makes me agree with you, though, is the fact that they have camo and are a 5 man squad.
And at the end of the day, commandos are much better with stens anyway and this is mostly a moot point. |
No, the firefly gets +40 damage to its shells at vet 3. However the firefly starts at 200 damage a shell and goes up to 240 at vet 3 which not only makes it good vs 800HP+ tanks to start with but can 3 shot standard 640HP mediums at vet 3.
The JP4s "first strike" damage bonus only works when it enters combat (and maybe is required to be cloaked?). So you get a 200 damage shot on shot #1, then 160 damage shells for the next 3 for example if you're shooting at a 640HP medium. So the extra 40 damage doesn't do anything; it still requires 4 shots to kill 640HP mediums, but boosts total damage to 680 over 4 shots. There isn't a single armor piece at 680HP in the game.
Oh right I forgot it started at 200 damage. Much more useful.
JP first strike should probably just get changed to accuracy then.
And yeah, as far as I know the first strike bonus only triggers out of camo. |
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Just saying JP4 "first strike" is a boost in damage of +40 with additional pen. The pen is useful because the JP4 lacks pen, but the damage is essentially useless unless you couple it with a 120 damage source, which is a puma shell or a shreck. Getting either of those as OKW is not very wise. I would've taken +5% accuracy at vet 5 over +40 damage. The damage is just garbage.
Doesn't the firefly get the same bonus with veterancy? Or does it add more? Either way, it is kinda useless as a bonus. Agreed that accuracy would be better. |
The best approach would probably be to just give them tommy rifles and nerf their commando brens.
Well if one did really want to shoot them self in the foot by not using stens then you might as well let them have a squad that’s superior to tommies. They cost a lot more and are doctrinal, so I don’t see why a high long range dps model in exchange for almost no potency while moving would need to be nerfed. |
No, the reason why this thread was created was to move an off topic debate out of the feedback thread and to explain the role in game and in real life of shock troops.
I have replied to the argument that assault troops can be used defensively in previous post, pls try to read before jumping in into a debate and restarting a debate that has run its course.
The fact is quite simple shock troops in real life and in game are offensive oriented assault troops.
Cool. Point being? Was the entire purpose of the thread just to say “I think shocks are offensive troops and nothing have a nice day?” |
That's true. You're right...
But... Honestly want to know your opinion:
Does the USA (not allies) side tech cost balance out when you consider the free units that come with tech and enable early game domination?
My feeling is that's a very big advantage to get a free unit while your opponent spends 300mp for tech. And it gives an early-game resource boost because of territory loss.
And 2nd question - back to OP's point about mines. All things considered, is it not fair to not give regular mines to USF?
Yes. That was my original point. It’s not “privilege” if it comes with an equally large caveat. Also, would you pay 500 manpower and 50 fuel for an infantry squad? Even if you take out the ambulance cost, you’re trading 250ish manpower and 40 fuel in sidetechs for one free infantry squad. Major sorta kinda doesn’t count, as he’s a powerful unit but definitely doesn’t exert a lot of pressure on the enemy. He does have potent abilities though. Something like the okw flak base is just as “free” as free officers that usf gets and doesn’t come with substantial sidetechs just to throw grenades and upgrade BARs/zooks. Not saying it’s not unbalanced but again, it’s not “privilege” if it has an equally large compensating cost elsewhere. USF is also designed to crutch on having lots of mainline infantry like no other faction, as even okw has the kubel and sturms in the early game that help as force multipliers and can cut bleed a lot through much better trading in combat than riflemen are capable of. |
Have no intention of arguing semantics with you and further derail this thread. Both in real life and in game Shock troops are offensively oriented units by definition. You can argue your point with wikipedia if you want.
This entire thread was based on semantics lol.
Offensive forces can be used defensively to counterattack during an attack. They are still performing effectively in an offensively oriented manner in a tactically a defensive role. While made for offensive operations, there’s no reason such troops can’t utilized in such scenarios as defensive operations constitute more than holding a line with rifles and machine guns.
I don’t have enough knowledge to cite specific battles, but I’m sure the US marines (who are by definition amphibious shock troops, have been used as such, and fall under the blanket term) have been used defensively in many situations. The modern US military even has the term “QRF” or quick reaction force, which is an aggressive unit like delta force (which doesn’t officially exist according to the US government IIRC but whatever) that could serve in both offensive or defensive operations, mostly by quickly attacking or counterattacking in the middle of a battle, to the best of my understanding anyway. |
I have to point out that Major is an officer squad not an infantry squad.
Meh. Point still stands about the designation of “top tier” being unclear. The sherman is technically (by in game definition) the usf top tier medium, but by the literal definition of top tier, the sherman 76mm or easy 8 would probably be considered the top tier usf medium. |
Flamethrower or MG on UC? Which is better?
Honestly, MG unless you want to lose it in like 2 seconds. Especially against ostheer, the flamethrower requires way more micro than the mg because it only barely outranges grenadier fausts and gets 1 hit by pgrens with double schrecks, and against okw it usually dies to a raketen if they get one since it only takes one shot and a few rifle hits. There’s a few times where I’d get the flamethrower (like serious mg spam) but it’s very situational and IMO the mg does enough dps to make it better in almost all situations (and it can suppress with the ability) and is surprisingly easy to keep alive for a t0 ultralight vehicle. I’ve had 1v1s where the thing holds a flank all by itself for a while and then baits in a tank to dive on it and be killed by my aec immobilizing it and armor and at coming in to finish it off (sometimes the UC even survives lol). Never had a flamer UC make it past 15 minutes as far as I remember. I think the mg also shoots down planes sometimes, making it the cheapest AA available (not counting pintle mounts on usf and axis tanks). |
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