I also afraid that buffed cons with weak maxims make only one buildorder for SU. Cons,cons,cons....SU don't need HMGs,snipers or M3A1 we have cons! It will be very boring gameplay. |
Conscripts will be all the same penals only stretched in time, they will receive six SVT-40. With six SVT-40 recruits will be an excellent unit, and there will be no complaints that six SVT-40 penalty points are OP at the start of the game. With six SVT-40 conscripts will be an excellent unit, and there will be no complaints that six SVT-40 penals are OP at the start of the game.
We already have an assault unit - shock troops, explosives can be moved with it.
I don't argue that this make cons real mainline squad. But totally remove entire unit for this, it give less diversity to gameplay. Much easier balance only one unit to another, but we all also want to see diversity and variable tactics. If you remove penals who will build T1 for SU? It will be totaly dead building without any real options (only if you want sniper for some reasons...). And don't forget that problem with cons was not only they weakness against other infantry as weak maxims do that. You always go to T2 for maxims and after maxim nerf we got penals with AT option to get buildorder where you can build infantry and get some AT options. |
I completely agree. Remove the Penals: they are superfluous as the second main unit at the start as engineers on the steroids and now that simply overlap the conscripts. Conscripts to get SVT-40 and Soviet infantry units will finally have order.
And what we will do with penals? If we removed them, SU lost alternative infantry unit. OST have Pgrens, OKW have obers, USF have officers and UKF have engeeners with options to buy weapon and get upgrade from anvil.
I said it before, that penals must reverted into narrow specialists squad. As example:
1. Tank hunters - 3 PTRS and mosins and ability similar to brit sniper. IMHO i prefer this squad as analogue of light AT gun with cone of fire. It looks more realistic, as ptrs never used to shoot from hands.
2. Breakthrough squad - ppshs and satchels. |
Oh this "historical movies"...from one movie i knew that Lincoln killed vampires. From other i saw t34-85 in 1942 and modern CV in the middle of Battle for Midway.
If you want introduce some kind of Human Waves tactics for SU, you can make ability relief infantry nondoctrinal. Problem solved, you've got new tactic that best suit for SU in your opinion...But also got bunch balance problems for Wermacht and OKW.
P.S. If you really want to learn history of WW2 i highly recommended you to read books and historical forums. It's the best then stupid Hollywood movies. |
There should be for Grenadier as I have mentioned before in other forums
1./ its current MG42 upgrade, purpose for "extra firepower" 60 ammo
or
2./ additional man for , "extra survivability". 60 ammo
You can pick one or the other. Not both, not until Battle Phase 3 and both will cost you in total 120 ammo. Costy, right?
I believe this is a good step or diverse mechanic. No too strong or OP. The idea is, you can pick one upgrade in the beginning only until Battle Phase 3 where you can get both. Have to upgrade individually.
It should create a dilemma or difficult choice as one will have to pick one element over the other.
You want make from grens cutted version of osttruppen with 5-th man upgrade? I think more simple approach is doctrine with relief infantry ability, if you want lategame canon fodder. I think you agree that 90 ammo for even one 200 MP squad is very good trade in lategame (i could got all 3 squads from one activation, when i have 1-st squad of osttruppens)? After, just hit ability on cd and get your endless waves of canon fodder. No need weapon upgrades, only new mg-42s and paks for them, if enemy enough smart to destroy my team weapon. Grens even with 5-th mans and same bonuses as 7-th cons, couldn't even close to such efficiency from terms of resources. Grens without weapon upgrade will become free vet for ally elite infantry.
SU should get Molotov upgrade free and the AT costing only.
Like what the British Elements have although they have (Bolster Squad) it at more cost effective option. It should not be a problem
I think Conscripts should have 8 man squad. Upgrade should come earlier. 6 men equipped with weapons, the other 2 unarmed but waiting for other models to die in order to get their weapon. Fits the historical aspect like the Movie "Enemy at The Gates". Not all cons had rifles, they had to get it from another dead con. Create this element of "Human Wave Tactics" would surely improve the elements of the game and SU.
No, hell no please. Don't even consider that 2 unarmed men waiting to grab weapon from deads it's like bad clishce from Enemy at Gates. We have enough this shit in company, no need to make this in multiplayer too. And how you imagine to deal with cover problems? One model that don't fit in cover under HMG fire will pin whole squad. If i need canon fodder for SU in lategame i choose doc with relief infantry and change my ammo for free squads.
IMHO cons never become SU mainline infantry. They only useful as fast AT-gren squad or with ppshs. 7-th man upgrade in T4, don't will make them popular. |
If the conscript changes about 7th member go ahead I would suggest a 5 men for grenadiers with a similar design, for the same reasons.
Grenadier are simply not worth building in late game.
5 man squad grens with faster vet and cover bonus and WITHOUT any weapon, i don't think that this will fit you in lategame? If you need 5-man grens you can choose doc with it and even get g43 and you even don't need wait you T4! |
If 7th con causes so much troubles, why don't just replace him by medic with pistole? No dpf buff, onle healing out of combat. |
To my previous post: to reward player for using cons we could make that squad that get merging from cons can be "re-reinforce".
Example:
The cost 1 cons to reinforce - 20 MP. The cost to reinforce 1 stromtrooper - 30 MP. I could use reinforce to convert this 1 con to stormtrooper,i paid difference between cost of 1 storm and 1 cons: 30-20=10MP. Now where the point. If we use approach that moders get us in this decision (where you can get upgrade for 7-th man and decreased price for reinforce, 17MP). But costs to reinforce in formula will be "30-23",where 20+(20-17)=23.
Because when you merging squad - cons get only weapon, but not stats of initial unit. Such approach could escape this situation, if player will want it.
And in the lategame game will be reward player for using cons, in T4 you can use upgraded cons to get little price reduction to reinforce your units (3mp per member). But to use this tecnique you must use cons.
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If we want see cons as utility unit, i think we must consider how we can make them good with combine of other soviet infantry. Right now, if you play through cons (and don't use maxim) you have only one enough strong option - 2 CE with flames and 4 cons squads. Where cons uses their Merge ability to save dps from CE flames. This tactics works on early game.
What if cons will have ability to "get" some boosts from choosen nearby squad and link with that squad (i think automerge every lost member of chhosen squad)? As example:
1. If we choose CE as pair to cons, that cons squad could build sandbags much more faster (30 or 50%) or get improved version of conbag, where another side don't get cover bonus, or ability to plant mines.
2. If we choose penal squad, cons get ability that increase their ROF and regular satchel.
3. If we choose quards, ability hit the dirt with same bonuses as guards (maybe little weaker version) and nades.
4. If choose shocks, they have frag grens and more suppresion resistance.
Link will be works when cons squad and choosen nearbe to each other. It will prevent abusing abilities when you activate "Hoora". And also link will be broken if choosen die or retreat. Then we will get "utility" cons, that weak by themselves, but strong with combine with other infantry. Suc method will also show SU as combine arms faction (as it was intended be Relic).
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If we think about penals we could return to their old state - flamethrowers. Make them squad with flames and satchels and mosins instead svt (adn maybe 1 or 2 ppshs). Make them costs 240 as cons squad (and tune their stats accordingly). Then you will get reason to merge cons with them. And their 2-nd instance as tank hunters with ptrs, mines and ability to make skillshot like brit sniper (farewell sneaky AT-satchel). |