Riflemen in green cover > volks in green cover at any range. This has been tested multiple times. Although at max range it can go either way sometimes. Plan B is to attack 2v1. Plan C is avoid the area till you can either get a 50cal to suppress them out of it or till you can go 2v1. Grenades are in all honesty a waste of resources early as USF. They’re overly expensive and the higher you go in ELO the less effective they become. I’d rather just get weapon racks and start to out gun my opponent.
I am pretty sure RM does less dps vs volks at long range. It is easy to say than done. Simply volks cost less to build and reinforce, by the time you charge into green cover you probably lost the fight already in a one vs one situation. Grenadiers out scale any infantry with vets and lmg upgrade.
The result of your test probably didn't take gap close in consideration. I agree if both units start behind cover, RM wins mid and close range.
So why a unit cost 280 has to gap close with the support of other units in order to win vs 250 manpower unit?
Gren with lmg upgrade destroys rifleman, you can't even gap close with smoke.
I play against karl everyday, I think he is one of the best OKW players. Blob of Volks sit behind a sandbag at your fuel point is instantly retarded for usf to deal with. |
From Cruzzi's stats
BARs are 10.8/8./4.4
Garands are approximately 4.4/2.8/1.7
Both Garands and BARs have higher moving accuracy, and Riflemen have a smaller target size.
STGs are 7.8/5.4/2.0
Volks KAR98s are 3.5/2.7/1.8
So if we're talking early game, yes you are correct. Sturms and Volks beat the hell out of Rifles in the early game.
The problem is that you can't make a one-sided argument by ignoring how advantageous the mid to late game infantry engagements are for USF. You can't buff Riflemen early game while ignoring the vastly superior scaling of USF Riflemen. A Vet 3 Rifle squad without upgrades will narrowly beat Vet 3 Volks with STGs. Riflemen have much better combat bonuses from veterancy than Volks, and the ability to double BAR them makes them incredibly efficient for a single squad population-wise.
Not sure when you started playing, but double LMG Riflemen were removed from the game because they have similar ranged dps (approx 23) to an LMG Obers squad (approx 25). The fact that they're more easily spammable, cost less to reinforce and build, have utility abilities, and will already be Vet 3 by the time Obers appear made that combination way too powerful.
If Riflemen gets early game buffs, then USF vet scaling definitely needs to be tuned down in exchange.
Is this the stat for one single STG or two? Thanks. |
Ok why? No other faction has smoke on mainline infantry, and it made flanking less of a requirement. You could just run into an MG arc and drop a smoke from mainline infantry.
How do you beat volks behind sandbag, how do you beat ob, and grens at long range? Mortar smoke is not the solution in the late game. Even in GCS level, you rarely see someone smoke OB close distance with mortar.
USF has to tech up to get nade,30 fuels which are more expensive than British 10 fuels. 30 fuels could mean, 2-3 mins late on your light vehicle. |
So what is this thread actually asking for? USF starts out slower than OKW due to the sturm starter and the power of volks. USF tends to close this gap with free squads, better scaling and the 50 cal, and USF dominates lategame in 1v1. So what are you asking for here? Also it might help to talk about what game mode you’re talking about as fighting P4s in 1v1 is very different than fighting JTs
Give smoke to the RM |
im pretty sure volks cant upgrade non-friendly territories
@OP RM are the best mainline infantry in the game and the most versatile. They beat volks in MOST situations but u want them to beat volks in EVERY situation. Once vetted and upgraded they can easily stand up to axis elites like Obers. you want to buff the bar? then limit it to 1 (fyi check the stats of the bar and stg). If you want smokes, u do what other factions do and get a motor.
USF being Op is balanced ? lol. Yh the doctrine doesn't have a late game USF, they already have non doc late game with the powerful Jackson. is the USF the only faction u ever play?
No I don't play usf cuz RM cost too much, plus when USF vehicles get destroyed by Puma, and free no tech at gun from okw. And volks can upgrade in non-friendly territories . Same reason USF is not a popular pick in gcs. |
Do you actually know what the dps of the BAR vs the STG actually is? Or do you just assume that since you use your units poorly and loose em, everything that shoots at your units has Op amount of DPS?
I don't think DPS is the only reason, volks in green cover even with bar it could take RM forever to kill them. And RM can't lay sandbags as often as volks, plus you don't really have a flamethrower as usf vs green cover.
RM is the bread and butter of usf. Teach me how to play the faction, when their main infantry get destroyed every stage of the game. Early game rm get beat by volks, late game rm get beat by OB. |
Oh this is about balance.
I thought you were gonna talk about how the USF are the only infantry unit fucked by having to get back to base to pickup weapons.
For which I was gonna suggest they get a weapon drop Halftrack like the Brits, maybe in Tactical Support or the Mechanized Company one?
That too. Volks can upgrade stg even it is not in friendly territories. But I don't see it as a big deal. |
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This unit used to be OP ASF. You can one-shot any squad at any distant. At the moment it only does manpower damage, firing rockets it is way too slow, with its high cost it is not worth getting it. I understand it is hard to kill, but the population cap is insane. No dps, no burst damage. |
The wording of this makes it sound like something that belongs in Balance Discussion.
Anyways, back to the topic: I would not say that allied units perform poorly compared to their WM or OKW counterparts. It is simply a matter of where they perform well (what is their intended role, intended engagement distance, etc.).
Grenadiers beat Rear Echelons because they are designed to fight. They're designed to win engagements. Rear Echelons are designed to be support units. They can build a ton stuff, repair things like tanks, and (finally!) plant mines.
Directly comparing a combat unit to a utility unit isn't a fair comparison. You can say REs are 40MP less than Grens and perform poorly against them; I can say Pioneers are 40MP less than Conscripts and perform poorly against them.
In the days when I had way too much time to spare I actually conducted mass vacuum tests of all 1v1 infantry engagements that I knew of. Riflemen beat Grens and Volks at close and mid ranges in all circumstances (stock, upgraded, max vet & upgraded, no cover, yellow cover, green cover), even beating Volks at long range in the upgraded and max vet upgraded tests.
The M2HB .50 cal was nerfed only when they removed the Sprint ability, which is a perfectly reasonable as team weapons should be punished for being flanked. Popcap adjustments and adjusting suppression are minor yet also very reasonable. Even so, it has great suppression and amazing damage. The mighty MG42 does less damage but has a wider arc.
Arguing that it is locked behind tech is invalid, as the Maxim is also locked behind tech. The OKW MG34, as paltry as it is, is also locked behind tech (albeit is unlocked with any tech). Out of all the MGs locked behind tech, the M2HB is easily the most powerful one.
In all honesty, the cost-to-performance of most units in CoH2 is relatively well tuned at the moment; the biggest issues I can recall (off the top of my head) lie with heavy tanks, which are more difficult to use due to their massive hitboxes and their slow, cumbersome nature.
When you compare RM to Volks. https://www.coh2.org/topic/81501/usf-infantry-upgrade |
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RM cost 280 manpower, pretty much lose to volks 250 manpower. Only way RM win is when volk charges into RM, when RM holds a cover. You guaranteed to lose 1v1 match when RM charge into volk behind the sandbag.
Last couple patch removed the smoke from RM, which you could use it to close the distance to win engagements vs OB and volks.
Bar upgrade is 150 MP and 10 fuels, plus 60 munitions each bar. Single bar loses to Volks with STG(also 60 munitions) at the close, medium and long range. With 2bars RM has 60/40 chance of winning with the exception of vet 3 at the close and medium range.
I think it is time to bring up the bar dps dmg. Maybe make RM cheaper too.
The usf LMG, 2x LMG on the paratrooper is op, but it is balanced overall because the doctrine does not have a late game. 1LMG on RM, doesn't do anything, which I don't understand why it cost 75 munitions and comes at 3 CP. LMG 42 is only 60 munitions, and does more dmg than USF LMG.
2X LMG I think it is fairly balanced, since it cost a lot, and comes at 3cps as well. And captain doesn't have aoe On me ability anymore, so you don't have that instant MG wipe.
On the other hand, rear echelon with 1 LMG is actually super good. Cheap and more dps than RM.
I think the biggest issue is RM not having smoke to close the distance to win engagements.
And why is the USF grenade upgrade cost more than the British grenade upgrade, and it does less damage than British grenade. |
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