at the end of the day, i think with these changes you wont be able to magically pull a victory out of your ass when you call in a croc (like i have done many times in 1v1s), and instead the better player will win a match.
I'm sorry but with all due respect, what 1v1s? I see on your playercard you have about 20 games played with Brits in random 2v2, but unless the playercard is glitched out I see no games as Brits in 1v1s...
Still, I don't think the Croc was an "I win" unit like you're making it out to be, that you're automatically guarenteed you to lulzpwn your opponent. It certainly was OP earlier when it had 280 armour, 1600hp and 16 damage flamethrower, but now I think, while strong, it's a fairly situational unit and investing in one over say, a couple of Cromwells or a Comet could be a grave mistake that can definitely lose you games. Now with the outrageous price increase it will definitely not be worth getting since it is so specialized and cannot effectively deal with the late game units which it will be competing against. |
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Of course the Croc + AT gun synergy is very potent, but the AT guns are very immobile, and the Croc itself only fares slightly better. You will almost always be on the defensive with this setup, as trying to move up the Croc and the 2-3 AT guns you need to counter the heavy armour that arrives at the same time as the Croc will be extremely lackluster for many reasons. The Croc's most potent weapon, the flamethrower, is fixed to the front of the tank and it turns itself pretty damn slow, which means if you spread out your infantry to flank it's supporting AT guns and watch as the Croc turns ever so slowly to attack each individual squad and then move up your own tanks and AT to attack the Croc, it is in a pretty bad place for itself.
So you can invest in more mobile TD's like you said (I personally will discount the firefly since it's pretty terrible at this point unless you have a couple hundred muni to throw into the tulips), so that leaves the Comet, which is a 500MP/185FU investment, not counting the 200MP/50FU you need for the first one, which also locks out heavy engineers, which means the Croc it's supporting will be very slow to repair. On top of this, this also means the odds of your opponent being able to replace a destroyed Croc immediately is very low, unless he's dominating all of the map and not bleeding manpower at all, and if that's the case something went wrong.
In all honesty though the price can be increased to 200FU IMO (and even keep the heavy manpower cost) if the other changes were reverted (most notably the flamethrower range nerf) and it would still be a worthy investment. Otherwise, anything other than it's current live cost is too steep.
Making it the cost of a standard heavy tank just isn't a good idea, since tanks of the same cost are more generalist and can engage a wide variety of threats at decent effectiveness, while the Croc itself is only good against infantry and weapons teams, which shouldn't be unsupported by armour in the late stages of the game anyway. To further add to the Croc's cost you'll probably need some extra AT guns. True usually 1-2 is usually the standard build, but if you start facing a lot of armour you're going to need 3 or more and that just sort of adds an invisible cost to the Croc itself. |
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Don't understand this change. Veterancy and range nerf was enough. This tank just doesn't have the utility of other heavies. Relic pls. |
I would like to say I'd be completely fine with altogether removing the sniper's AT abilities and just making him a standard sniper that actually gets decent veterancy bonuses (higher ROF, etc) and then giving either the IS or Sappers an AT snare. I'd rather have a sniper than can be more anti-Infantry oriented (the thing they're kinda designed to be) and have a better window to countersnipe (doesn't have to aim for a year and a half and have the Ost sniper recloak if you don't target him right away).
It would also help Brits to deal with their now brought-in-line AT gun cost and give them away to prevent heavier vehicles that the sniper can't even crit decently from rushing straight past a couple of AT guns and anhiliating them while the infantry just watches.
I've been playing a lot of this mod as it develops and I still firmly believe Brits will need some sort of snare now that there's literally nothing stopping a scout car (or even better, double scout cars which were pretty damn effective when the sniper still had it's vet 0 critical shot) from rolling right ahead on a UKF sniper, and if an Ost player is good enough to keep his own sniper on the ball while he does this, that sniper practically never existed.
So please, remove the critical shot if you must (even change the sniper himself to a regular, anti-infantry, non-AT sniper for all I care, as said above) but give the mainline infantry some kind of snare so the UKF sniper doesn't have hide in a corner and be useless until either a scout car makes a major fuck up and manages to stand in front of 2 AT guns, or for the Brit to invest in a completely overpriced and useless light vehicle vehicle that also locks out one of the more useful emplacements (not that emplacements are good anyway but still  )
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Tommies were just fine with their in-cover shtick, after some initial shock and l2p issues people learned to live with that. I have no idea why Relic saw fit to change them, or why they thought removing some of their in-cover damage compensated for buffing their out-of-cover damage. You remove their one strong feature, cover play, while they are still largely useless out of cover? You nerf them in their 80%-of-the-time used mode, but buff slightly their 20%-got-caught-out-of-position mode (and they STILL can't go 1v1 versus any enemy infantry, let alone cost for cost)? So now they will take 50% of Grenadier squad health instead of 40% in an ideal out of cover shootout before being forced to retreat? What does it fix, exactly?
Varying bonuses based on hammer / anvil is a neat idea on paper but modifying their hammer/anvil bonuses does not really address Tommie issues. Vet3, 5-man dual-bren Tommies are not solely a late-game issue anyway.
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Tenid explained it pretty well. Without the critical shot, the UKF sniper is the least useful of the three and it's critical shot is made to compensate for it's admittedly poorer veterancy (aside from the survivability) and the lack of any snare available to the UKF.
Also having to rely on the AEC to snare is the worst idea ever - not only will it come out much later than the 222, so you better hope it doesn't find your sniper when it does, it will lack ANY other utility besides killing a 222.
I like to think of it this way - each faction has an early/mid game unit that can take on very light vehicles and kill infantry - for the USF it's the M20 or Stuart, for the Soviets it's the T70, for the Ost it's the 222/Flame HT and for the OKW it's the Flak HT (and to a lesser extent the Luchs). The UKF has no similar vehicles to their disposal, which is why they have the sniper - it's basically their version of the above listed units.
Also A.Schwarzenschnitzel, the sniper can only really crit light vehicles. Saying it crits a tiger (or anything heavier than a Luchs for that matter) is laughable since it ONLY jams the turret for about 5 seconds. No other damage to it. It is stupid against assault guns, since it temporarily stops their movement, but aside from that it's useless against anything but the lightest vehicles.
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@ Schwarzenschnitzel - Having the mortar emplacement be only viable when placed behind a shotblocker makes it a very poor counter to any of these units - that coupled with the fact that it costs 400 manpower, has a long barrage cooldown unless garrisoned, and is completely immobile means I would never consider this unit to be a reliable counter to clearing any garrisons. Also unlike all other mortars, it can't retreat and requires babysitting which means if it gets caught on its own you better pray you can get there before Volks can toss a couple flame nades on it or that Pios don't get too many flame bursts on it.
I'm sorry you're having this much trouble clearing garrisons with the Ostheer's tools. I am going to hypothesize though and assume you are doing something very wrong. Maybe you are not supporting your flame pios properly? Maybe you're not using riflenades to displace supporting British infantry and make them completely useless since they're out of cover? Maybe you have your mortar on hold fire? If you'd like please send a replay my way of you experience this issue and I would be more than happy to review it for you.
@ cr4wler - I actually have played a lot more than 4 games with this mod - conversely, I'm going to assume you yourself haven't read the patch notes fully yet, let alone played the mod - but first of all, Volks got a very nice buff to their base damage (while Tommies get a nerf to theirs) and now they completely walk all over Tommies. Their veterancy 4-5 was nerfed to compensate not only for this change but also for the fact that they full resource income now. One of the major points of OKW being allowed to have 5 levels of veterancy while other factions weren't was due to them not having full resource income, which is sort of not true anymore.
I'm repeating my first post, but the reason Tommies are supposed to be so potent in the anti infantry department is because they completely lack ANY other kind of versatility. AT snares are entirely absent. Decent grenades are absent. They can not flank at all due to the debuffs received out of cover, and they are very vulnerable to axis units which were originally designed to take on 5-6 man squads due to their small base squad size. This balanced out their impressive performance in cover, and makes them balanced with all other mainline infantry, albeit in a different way, as it should be to keep each faction unique and fun. |
If tommies got in an important garrison early game, you knew you were ****** because there was no way in hell you would get tommies out of the perfect green cover position with their bonuesse. The vickers would follow up soon everytime which would allow greater range with its bonusses in garisons, which meant you were ***** even more. So you were forced to either get a sniper, which is a heavy investment micro and mp wise or get a mortar halftrack with icendiary rounds, forcing you to choose a doctrine purely because of the garison.
I'm afraid I can't agree with that because getting any unit out of an important garrison can be trouble, it's not a problem exclusive to the British. But I find that the standard Ost mortar, not the halftrack variety, is a great investment to deal with this issue. Or if you're really having trouble, your standard builder unit can equip a flamethrower which is a very nice way to clear any cover position. As for the OKW, they have the rather potent incendiary grenade which will be even easier to access now that they have full income.
I'm also going to say this is not a problem exclusive to Axis - if the British lose an important garrison, how are they meant to clear it? They don't have access to a base mortar, flamethrower, and their sniper has added artificial difficulty since it cannot target a building without just attacking the building itself, meaning you have to A move. You only have the WASP which is...lol. |
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To answer those regarding the displacement of the British Sniper critical shot to vet 1, I must say that light vehicles are not the only counter for the UKF sniper. Firstly, you already have the far superior Ost sniper which can only reliably be eliminated with the UKF sniper, a task that will now be near impossible if you have no disposed of the Ost sniper before a 222 roles out - and even if you do the 222 can just roll up to your sniper and quickly avenge his fallen comrade - as there is absolutely no snare to screen him and any light vehicle can literally follow your sniper back to base with negligible worry. Hell, it's not like the critical shot even DESTROYED the 222, it could still reliably role away and live to fight another day so long as you didn't walk into an AT gun ambush.
So I'd either say revert the changes on the sniper's critical shot - or give Infantry Sections some panzerfaust equivalent so the sniper doesn't have to become useless as soon as a light vehicle rolls out. I'm willing to bet that the majority of players would rather the UKF sniper remain unchanged as his snare is ONLY effective against light vehicles and nothing else.
Also on an unrelated note - The performance of the IS is laughably abysmal now. Not only do they lack any of the versatility of other mainline units, they are one of the most expensive and are completely mopped up by Volks and Grens alike. The "buff" to out of cover was so minimal in impact since they still suck very hard out of cover, that it might as well have not even been added. Like I said, I feel the infantry section was one of the most well-designed mainline infantry units in the game, so I'm hoping fellow players and eventually Relic agree with me in reverting the changes made to them. |
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