|
I want to make it clear that while I think the damage is over the top, my biggest problem, more than anything, is how annoying these quasi-empalcements make the game to play. UKF got their emplacements rightfully changed, and I think now that OKW has seen so many changes since its inception, this should get changed, too. I'm totally fine giving OKW other tweaks to compensate - ANYTHING so the rules of the game don't get broken whenever this thing is set down. |
|
Would love it if more people who think the unit is fine could voice their reasoning. |
|
They should do less damage to retreating squads, otherwise they're fine. |
|
I want to bring up another point that I probably should have mentioned in the OP that is more of an indirect consequence of this unit's range/lethality, and that is that the nature of this unit allows indirect fire to be pushed far more aggressively than any other faction. A double LEIG sitting around a Schwerer HQ on maps like Langreskaya or Faymonville are not necessarily overpowered, but holy hell do they make the game instantly unfun to play, like the old advanced bofors + mortar emplacements. You cannot reliably attack these indirect fire positions or force them to relocate because they can easy take a few backpedal steps into the range of the Flak HQ, which will either suppress or kill approaching units (but often both). |
The Schwer is ironically oppressive only when it's very defensive, like when he uses it in a very safe spot near his base (crossroads cutoff, for example), because in those cases there's no real counterplay.
Whenever it's used for greed (VP/fuel) it is easily punished and I've won many games by taking out a greedy schwer, so I'm generally happy enough that this trade-off exists.
Agreed, an aggressive HQ is usually easy to off (although there are some maps where aggressive play can be more successful than others), but one of the main issues I have with it is that it shuts down one of the core gameplay elements of COH, that is, supply/cut-off harassing, and even on some maps, like Crossroads for example, it can be placed aggressively to cover a VP and drag the game on for a long time. |
Yes it needs a change, more lethality/durability in 3v3+. 1v1 it can feel, dare I say it, *cough* oppressive *cough*, but in teamgames it provides an ez win condition if killed early enough.
This building from a killing viewpoint is a non-issue imho. It will be targeted with call-ins. Tactics ranging from one click Air Superiority, Smoke and triple Gammon/Satchel or just mortars alone. PTABs and a few shells will end it. Commandos can also place bombs under smoke cover from certain docs/tactics. Sov engineers can do it too. You do not want Pyrotechnics getting a free throw in whenever they feel like it. Crawl crawl crawl they will unless being vaporised is extremely close in their future. Seen them try more times than I can count.
You cannot micro the gun as it will fire at the first target that comes into range, regardless of how dangerous the other units are. Easily abused with a light tank or heavier to give time for bombs.
I don't know why people think this gun can deal with mediums, it bounces most of the time against even T-34/76 frontal armour. You can write the building off if they can get a med tank in an unopposed shootout with it.
Honestly, in any larger team game modes, static buildings and emplacements of all kinds are going to be zeroed in and targeted, ranging from bunkers, MG pits, Brit emplacements to Flak HQs. Yes, the Flak HQ is not a problem on larger maps, but in 1v1, where maps are smaller, it does indeed become oppressive. In team games, it's better to just play conservatively with it so it won't be an easy target for 3+ players honing in on it. |
go and play as axis and learnt to fight bofors, which are incredibly much more dangerous than a okw t4.
it cost muuuuch less ressurces, is way more durable to brace.
it has arty mode, ground attack, way more dmg and is much less riski to lose and even when you lose it..rebuild it and you are fine.
Okay, I'm going to ignore the bit about the alleged overpoweredness of the bofors, but bring up a point regarding it.
Emplacements were despised in COH1 (rightfully), for some reason reintroduced in COH2, but were (rightfully) practically nerfed out of any competent, competitive play. Yes, they were overpowered at some points, but I think the biggest justification for nerfing them was that they simply make the game very unfun to play.
The Flak truck is basically an emplacement, but because it also doubles as a tech structure it gets some weirdly justified clearance for being annoying to play against in addition to any over the top attributes it may or may not possess. It, like emplacements, is a horrible design that's either completely insignificant on certain maps or absolutely game pace breaking on others. Oddly (not), emplacements were like this as well. |
Being free without constraint is what always bothered me. Imo since the revamp of OKW it should have been made as an active ability costing munition. USF officers may be free to deploy they still cost popcap, manpower to reinforce and munition to equip.
The bare minimum tweek it should receive is a reduction in lethality vs infantry at exchange of increasing the suppression because as you mentioned it sometime it just wipes squad in a matter of seconds and reducing its penetration vs medium. So the player has to defend it and not just build it upgrade it and pump obers because a single rak with the cannon will anyway wreck any medium entering the radius.
Yeah, I want to make it clear I'm not advocating to nerf this thing into the ground, because I'm very aware of the other faction shortcomings OKW has - but just reduce its model gibbing ability. It seems almost unintentionally over the top. I'd even be in favour of giving it a slight defensive increase against indirect fire in exchange. |
When you put this in a forward position of large map. You'll be losing to defend it. Not to mention its very inaccurate Anti-Air capabilities. You'll need to use smoke, attack ground, or indirect fires. Stop attacking it though for the purpose of just destroying it.
Also, OKW player loses its tech with it.
It goes without saying there will be some maps where its reach is not as problematic. However, 1v1 maps such as Faymonville or Crossroads where it can essentially lock down a good section of the map is where it becomes a bit much. Yes, you are correct that indirect fire is very effective, but the problem is that two of the allied factions don't have direct access to such units, and with the UKF it's basically non-existent since LEiGS will basically shut down any mortar emplacement play. I mentioned attack ground, but it's not reliable. Smoke can be good when you can follow up with things like satchel charges or demos, but again, not every faction has direct access to these.
I never found the anti-air abilities to be inadequate. They're good for what they are.
Yes, OKW will lose their tech if destroyed, but they also gain a free, micro-less suppression/killing platform just for teching. It seems like a fair trade. |
|
I'm honestly curious what other people think of this:
A base structure that is able to lock down a section of the map, provide free anti-air, and is incredibly lethal to anything that gets near it perplexes me. If any one of the British HQ trucks in COH1 functioned in any capacity similar to this, (when they actually needed it because they were prone to getting rushed by shreck blobs) they would have been nerfed to the ground.
I personally don't have a problem with the suppression or even anti-air capabilities of this "tech structure".
The problem I personally have is the lethality of this unit to infantry and vehicles. Any light vehicle that gets caught by this unit is going to be severely damaged, if not destroyed if the situation allows it. I have also noticed this unity has the extreme propensity to drop infantry models incredibly quickly. Granted, part of this is due to the infantry-clumping problem, but I have had more than a few off occasions where units were wiped even if they were retreated immediately. For example, I had the misfortune of walking a full health guard squad into a capture point, who proceeded to clump around a yellow cover bush in the sector, and get annihilated by a Flak HQ I had no idea was there almost immediately. This is a purely anecdotal experience, but I've had many more similar incidents happen over the years of playing this game.
This is combined with a pretty generous range that makes attacking this unit with anything other than indirect fire extremely dangerous. AT guns barely outrange them, and it can be difficult to even get vision to reliably attack them without employing AG crapshoots. Not to mention, they're often just close enough in range to the axis base sector that the OKW blob and LEIGS can rally and throw off any attack.
The fact that they reliably penetrate all allied mediums enough to deter any attacks or harassment is also silly imo, and the high health pool is often enough to buy time for AT support to show up if there is more than one vehicle pushing.
The biggest issue I have, however, is how this gameplay breaks the fundamental rules of COH2. If this structure is put up on a vantage point, you are suddenly restricted from doing any more harassing of the OKW's map points, meanwhile they are free to reciprocate on your own points, and without the extra micro tax spent on defending whatever section of the map this truck has locked down.
I'm well aware this unit is not indestructable and it has some weaknesses, but the point is the amount of micro it takes to oust one compared to just setting it down on a base sector is incredibly lopsided. I'm also aware that you don't necessarily have to destroy this structure either, but having it around, locked down on an important chokepoint makes the game drag out incredibly long and makes it much more of a headache to play.
This unit is a relic of a bygone era when OKW had resource limitations that necessitated locking down whatever precious few points they could manage, when they had no non-doctrinal MG for suppression, and didn't have access to arguably the best generalist medium tank in the game. The rest of the faction has evolved since then, and it's high time this unit does the same.
As a side note, I'm aware that certain units like the highly meta 120mm mortar are great at punishing aggressive placement, but the other factions that do not have access to these tools suffer dearly. However, I'm all for potentially reducing the damage of indirect fire in exchange for rebalancing this unit.
|
Norway
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
