Sorry smith would you mind giving me the stats for the puma too ?
Sure.
TARGET
IS2: 217.55 - 270.85 116.80 - 153.43 106.85 - 135.55 56.86 - 76.84
KT: 258.55 - 315.95 153.43 - 190.06 127.35 - 156.05 76.84 - 93.49
Churchill: 188.85 - 225.75 96.82 - 123.46 94.55 - 110.95 46.87 - 60.19
Tiger 168.35 - 213.45 93.49 - 120.13 82.25 - 106.85 46.87 - 60.19
Pershing 139.65 - 180.65 83.50 - 110.14 69.95 - 90.45 40.21 - 53.53
Panther Vet2 188.85 - 242.15 116.80 - 153.43 94.55 - 119.15 56.86 - 76.84
Though, note that:
1. The Puma has one of the widest divergences in the game when it comes to penetration. Penetration for puma goes from 160, at point-blank range to 80 at max-range (which is what the stats show). (Panzer4, penetration, e.g., goes from 120 to 100)
2. I don't know how to apply the range-modifications properly, thus I haven't applied it at all. Thus, effectively, I am giving you the Vet3 puma stats. Depending how range-increase veterancy affects the distances, this could also affect penetration. However, I don't know!
I find this relatively meaningless considering a panther for instance misses most shots when moving, same is true about the puma.
Against the big cats, very few of those shots would ever really miss, even when the firing unit is moving.
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PIATs
I finally managed to implement the following quality-of-life changes to the PIAT:
- Homing projectile, when facing a target directly (without any obstructions)
- PIATs will autofire over hedges, etc, if there are tanks nearby
- (also fixed some wonky squad AI)
Of course, to balance this out, PIATs lose the following:
- Their INSANE deflection damage, which made flanking heavy tanks redundant
- The INSANE range they used to have
- The fact that suppression had no effect on the accuracy of the projectile
In fact, in the QoL version, PIATs now have the shortest range of all handheld AT (30 as opposed to schreck's 35).
Let me know how those fixes pan out, and if PIAT raw performance should be buffed/nerfed further.
AT gun ambush & Hold Fire
I have replaced "Prioritise Vehicles" with "Hold Fire" on the following units which can benefit from stealth:
- JP4
- All AT guns (either natively, or through Soviet AT ambush)
These units will now permanently prioritise vehicles.
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I can understand, people call tulips broken coz thay stun, but another stuff that can stun for them are fine ?
Kitekaze asked me about the Tulips. I replied to him about the Tulips. I believe that diving straight to the point raised is more efficient than trying to raise every single issue that might, or might not be related to the issue.
Instead if I had answered, to him, something along the lines of:
- I believe Tulip to be OP because it is too cheap for what it offers
- Pak40, which also stuns is a bit OP, since you deal more damage in addition to stunning, and costs very little.
- AEC and Stug shouldn't have such a powerful debuff either, since both units are too cheap compared to the targets that they can potentially disable
- I also consider Sturmtiger debuffs (permanent immobilization) way too much for the durability of the unit
- The Sturmtiger wiping radius is big; but it's definitely not as big, or powerful, as the Stuka Dive LolBomb
- Speaking of which, demo charges are also bad for the game because they wipe things
- However, if I had to compare Soviet generalist mines, and OST Teller mines, I would go for the Teller mines, now that mine-wipes have been fixed.
.. then, I believe that the message would have been lost, the thread would get derailed, and everybody would (rightfully) think I was a raving lunatic.
Moreover, this wouldn't serve any single purpose on a topic which is explicitly about sharing the raw performance of tank-destroyers.
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Ambush Camouflage MG42s
- The camouflage part is a decent perk, though situational
- However, the true appeal of the ability is that the MG also gets a hold fire ability. You can use this to prevent the MG from giving its position away too early (and, thus, suppressing only half the blob)
Firefly Tulips used in an anti-infantry role. Try them out! This probably needs a nerf (inaccuracy).
Every single ability in the UKF Commandos doctrine except for Air Supremacy operation.
- Mortar Cover is one of the most cost-efficient ways to tell your opponent to gtfo a sector (apart from Stuka Dive LolBomb). The fact that it covers an entire sector without the need for spotting probably needs a nerf.
- Assault is a great ability to circumvent the shortcoming of the UKF grenade, and the terribleness of Tommy moving accuracy (sprinting means they can't fire when moving. Thus, Tommies will only ever fire when stationary, which means they will be accurate).
- Smoke raid (aka PC Spec Supremacy) is the most fun ability in the entire game, if you know how to use it. It would take me roughly 3 paragraphs to explain what the ability does exactly (as opposed to what the ability description wants to make you believe). I don't want to spoil. Thus, I invite everyone to figure this out by themselves.
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Hmm, okay, I understand why you put tulip in.
What's about last conclusion about "- The Firefly probably doesn't need its Tulips that much anymore"? Could you elaborate further the reason?
I see what you mean. It was a faux-pas on my behalf, cramming subjective conclusions with the data I presented.
What I meant with my statement is that the Firefly doesn't really require the current implementation of the Tulip to be useful:
- The Tulip should not be stunning tanks (at best it should prevent them from firing)
- With the cost and cooldown decrease, I would say that the Tulip has become extremely accessible.
- Personally, pre-patch, I would think twice before using tulips. Now (post-patch), I spam them to smack snipers, or infantry squads clumping in cover. (tulips could use some inaccuracy to prevent squad-wipes)
- Given the synergy of Tulip damage-dealing with the Tank Commander, the Tulip has become a near no-brainer.
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I just wonder why you add Firefly with tulip. That thing costs 150 ammo just to fire once. The said ammo can be used by axis with stun shot and stuka anti-tank/cas.
Firefly without tulip is just an overpriced M36. Without it, everyone will just use comet/cromwell for better efficiency.
With that, I have really bad impression of your OP. Sorry for misunderstanding last time again.
The reason I added Firefly with Tulips is because, from my experience, it appears that Tulips enable the Firefly (with the reduced reload time, and the vet bonuses on top of that) to deal a ridiculous amount of damage in very short time.
To provide the time-to-kill stats of the Firefly, without also providing the time-to-kill stats of the Firefly with Tulips (which is such a commonly-used ability) would leave a gaping hole in in the dataset. This is why I include both Firefly with tulips and firefly without tulips.
Finally, note that I am also providing data for how those TDs perform when paired (where alpha-strike damage is crucial). From my experience, even pre-patch Fireflies would perform well for their cost when two of them are involved.
I am merely providing the data, where there was none available before. People can form their own subjective opinions about it. However, now, behind those opinions there will be hard data to support or disprove those opinions.
Finally, and most importantly, this thread is not necessarily directed at people that want to read some numbers, and then argue about said numbers. It's also for new players, to help them guide towards which TDs they should be favouring, and which abilities they should be using. e.g.,:
- Do I get my value for money when I use M10 HVAP shells? (no you don't, you should be flanking)
- If I am in a team with a USF player and a UKF player, should we be building Fireflies or should we be building Jacksons instead?
PS: You are right that I should include TWP and Pershing HVAP in my table. I just didn't have the time.
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If somebody believes that there's any single datapoint missing from my table, please, state, concretely what that is (e.g., "why didn't you include the performance of Command Panther without mark target on?" -- in fact I have; it performs exactly the same as the vanilla Panther). I believe I have included the performance of all mentionworthy tanks, when both when their abilities are used, and without.
To my knowledge, Brit Tank commander is the only upgrade that affects tank-killing performance. Given that the upgrade is such a no-brainer, it makes no sense to present tank-commander-free tanks.
This, I would hope that turretless TDs that can only do AT would be better in that role than med+ tanks with anti-inf capability.
These stats go to show just how great the StugIIIG is at dealing damage. However what they don't show is how much it starts to struggle once firefly, Jackson, SU-85, and even comet (which Stug has no range overmatch against) hit the field, or how much the Stug relies on spotting scopes to really shine.
On the subject of panther, I think it would be alright with a small straight buff to its reload time. I think the intended role of the unit is clear enough: a highly mobile, reasonably durable counter to enemy tanks, which is itself vulnerable to enemy TDs firing at long range. It just can't do that role very well right now due to its low lethality and buffs to allied TDs which have diminished its durability advantage.
With the exception of Panther, Pershing, Comet and M10, neither turreted TD is actually able to flank. The jackson is way too fragile, and the firefly is, also, relatively fragile with a terrible turret traverse. In fact, the Panther also completely sucks at flanking, due to its low rate of fire, and the fact that it will sacrifice its armour (its only saving grace) when diving in.
Thus, the Jackson, the Firefly and the Panther will have to engage the target from the front, just like the Stug.
Yes, the Stug does have the issue of short range. However, even that is not a problem with the TWP. The TWP ability will completely disable the maingun of the target for 15 seconds, thus allowing the Stug to close in fearlessly.
In fact, the Stug is safer to use than the Panther when the dedicated TDs start rolling in. That's due to TWP and the price of the Stug. When the enemy masses their TDs, so can you your Stugs, and then you can bumrush them.
To me, the travesty is that the Stug doesn't require any sort of dedicated investment from the player, yet performs nearly the same as the dedicated turreted TDs:
- It costs nearly half the resources as the dedicated TDs
- Even if you buy it too early, it costs 8 popcap, thus you don't miss out much, by having it around.
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Well, I rememeber when I used tulips last time that Firefly was waiting to shoot like 5-6secs after tulips.
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I did I test.
First shot -> tulips -> second shot.
Tulips can be used AFTER shot, but after trulips, FF needs like 10-11secs to fire again.
You are right. The tulip ability forces the Firefly to reload AFTER the ability has elapsed. Thus, you should add 3 seconds for the Tulip-version of the results (assuming the player uses the tulips immediately after shooting the main gun).
PS: I am now presenting the JP4 stats in two lines. One assumes the ambush bonus (vet5), and one does not. My previous results for JP4 contained a bug, in that I forgot to add the reload cycle for the ambush bonus (The reload time of JP4 at Vet5 is something between 3-4 seconds).
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But the tulips are not that easy to hit against vehicle in move + they share CD with main gun. In 1v1 it's hardly an issue I guess.
I'll have to doublecheck whether there is a CD with the main-gun. Most of the time I use tulips, the fire just after the main gun has fired. Thus, the cooldown (if it even exists) is not noticeable.
With the tulip stun, it is a hell lot easier to hit moving targets. Most axis tanks will have to stop (decelerate) to really hit anything. Thus, if you lead the tulips adequately enough, the first will freeze the target dead-on-the-spot and the second will also hit (modulo elevation issues).
JTs are also not an issue in 1v1s. However, they are very efficient for their cost for anything higher than that. That's not a good excuse to leave the tulips at this state.
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I have updated the original post to show what happens when you group 2-of-the-same-TD to hit the same target.
As you can see, slower-hitting targets benefit more than faster-hitting targets when you group them.
- You can read the Command Panther x2 example as 1 Panther and 1 Command panther hitting the marked target at the same time.
- 4x Tulips hitting the same target is lulworthy 
Edit: I just noticed that the exported data also contains the KV2. The data does not account for any bonuses KV2 receives when docked (which I haven't checked yet)
To be honest I think I liked the old formula better with the command cromwell, Tulips are either too good or too bad and it looks like there is no in between and Relic can't or doesn't at least want to fix them somehow.
Personally, I think that the new firefly is waaaaayyy stronger with the new Tulips. In team-games, the stunning tulips make fielding expensive vehicles a joke, really. With the reload speed bonus, it's a straight buff, really.
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