Timing is a very important factor. It was proven when Shock troops and Guards where simply moved from CP2 to CP1 and ended up completely dominating the field.
Timing as a whole is important, most certainly, but I'm referring to its relation to the actual cost of the unit. Units should not be made prohibitively expensive or cheap just because of the time of when they hit the field. Cost should reflect their performance, not shock value.
There are other ways to delay a units timing hitting the field. |
You can't compare the two in this vacuum. Flame HT requires more tech, more resources to build and more resources to upgrade.
Flame UC is out way faster.
Why would it matter what time the wasp is able to hit the field? Its counters exist from the start of the game and the unit has a very hard time staying alive from the get go.
A units overall cost should not be dictated by its single use shock ability and should be comparative to its peers.
Yeah, the flameHT will cost some fuel but its hit like a truck (the wasp literally does one third the burst damage of the flame HT), is considerably more survivable and able to completely run amuck if the allied player failed to build AT in time. A wasp can't do that. |
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From a team game perspective, the flameHT is not terrible OP on its own, but talking about flamer units I do have a gripe to lay down.
Cost effectiveness:The ability to rush the flameHT out and alpha strike is not so much of a problem, provided you preparing for it, the part that bugs me is that is so much more cost effective than the wasp.
100 (or is 90) muni for 2 x flamers with 180 degree fire angle and 3 sec burst duration on a more durable platform with possible smoke.
Compare this to the wasp's 75 muni for a single flamer, with 90 degree fire cone and 2 sec burst duration on a more fragile platform. The wasp is also brits only mobile, non-doc anti-garrison unit.
This doesn't strike me as a good deal in comparison, especially considering that the wasp has to deal with threats like every German and their dog having fausts (especially grens with their long range version), magic bullets which insta-rape the wasp (any light vehicle for that matter), sneaky racks, shrecks, etc.
Now I'm not sure if its the flameHT is overly cost effective or its the wasp that has poor efficiency in comparison.
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Firstly I gotta ask why on earth are people comparing PIV's (both variants) to Churchills MK VII? That's like comparing PIV's to panthers or comets and being surprised one can reliably beat the other.
The only counterpart to the Churchill is the KV series and they all perform the role of damage sponge and their usefulness is, as many have stated, situational. Its main gun has the same stats as the Cromwell, just slower reload. Its MG power is neither here nor there, so its mildly threatening to infantry and its AT power is mediocre at best - its not a dps machine.
The only problem that this unit presents is that its hard to get rid of. But if in doubt, just get more AT guns. A pair of paks or racks will send a Churchill running. UKF don't get natural indirect units, so their ability to counter your AT guns will be limited.
In team games, I refrain from building the Churchill because by the time it hits the field, there are plenty of AT sources and its impact will be minimal. Better to rather invest in more Fireflies to deal with the inevitable build up of panthers and axis heavies. |
First of all, they should add popcap on bunkers, for EVERY faction. The only faction currently suffering from this, is UKF. End of briefing, dismissed.
Agreed |
I mean, the Raketenwerfer literally doesn't penetrate UKF medium tanks.
Rackwerfer has a far penetration of 180.
UKF mediums all have 160 front armour, which means the rack always penetrates.
If you are instead referring to the Comet Tank, which has a front armour rating of 290, that is considered a heavy tank as is also rubbish and should not be used. |
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The no pop cost, extended sight and attack range is what bothers me about it.
Its especially annoying in team games as all the good players will lock down flanking opportunities for no pop cost usage at all. They also tend to follow up any advance with bunker spam too.
Yes you can deal with them in various ways but the levels of spam in team games make them a real pain to deal with. And yes, USF also get fighting pits but they are inferior to the MG bunker in every way and not as spammable (only rear esh can build em). |
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I noticed this happen more often than not and typically after using a IR HT or valentine scan for extend period.
Being wondering if it is a result of the scan unit switching on and off, ie needing to relocate it or it's something to do with the state of the unit that is being scanned or some weird interaction.
Its only a few units that end up permanently tagged. |
Thread: US BARS24 Aug 2018, 08:28 AM
Some DPS numbers to put things into perspective for line inf upgrades from Cruzz's database:
Close range -
USF Riflemen BAR (60 muni each)
DPS: 13.2 / 6.5 / 4
dists: 5 / 14 / 35
Volks gren mp44, single (30 muni each)
DPS: 7.52 / 4.5 / 2.0
dists: 7 / 23 / 35
Conscript PPSH (Cost?)
DPS: 9.7 / 1.3 / 0.33
dists: 10 / 10 / 30
Gren G43 (Cost?)
DPS: 10.8 / 4.4 / 2.3
dists: 6 / 18 / 35
LMG's
Infantry Section BREN (45 muni each)
DPS: 4.1 / 6.0 / 6.85
dists: 0 / 25 / 35
Gren lmg42 (60 muni)
DPS: 5.6 / 8.6 / 8.9
dists: 0 / 28 / 35
USF M1919 (70 muni)
DPS: 5.4 / 8.3 / 8.8
dists: 0 / 28 / 35
Comments:
- Volks mp44 is the more cost effective close range weapon, with two of them having better DPS than a single BAR. Double BAR is clearly better but is double the cost for not double the performance.
- BARS have a very short mid range, compared to volks mp44.
- Grens lmg42 is the best lmg, both performance and cost wise, being better than even the more expensive M1919.
- Bren is the weakest lmg, but has a cost performance that is just below the lmg42.
- The allies need to pay for a rack unlock and the weapons they get are not as cost effective but they can double equip BRENs and BARS. ie Allied line inf have to pay a lot more to get an edge over axis line inf.
NOTE: The numbers are for Vet 0 and things do change a lot with the different units vet levels.
Colour me an idiot but I had no idea that the DPS profile for lmgs decreased, the closer you got... Explain why my double bren IS are so awful at close range.
Edit: added cons ppsh. and grens G43
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One thing that makes the first encounters difficult to judge is the very RNG dependent nature of infantry rifles. Sometimes they can drop a model in the first volley, sometimes they do bugger all damage before the SP manages to close the distance.
SP with their STG44 however are guaranteed to absolutely rape at close range, no uncertainty there.
They can also threaten garrisons if they can find a sweat spot covered by only one or two windows.
Cheap line inf and deadly elite inf make a for a powerful early game combo, forcing allies to be very careful about how they go about the early game encounter and if caught out of position, its just tickets for them.
SP early game just add options or tactics that the allies don't have access too for some time.
Now OKW originally was meant to be resource starved faction and so started with SP so that they could 'break through' and establish their pocket. This is not the current OKW so I imagine they could manage just fine with a kubel or volks starting unit.
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