Yes grens don't have sprint, but have non-tech snare and got weapon upgrades much more earlier than cons.
Want chasing for grens? Use doctrinal sprint, use camo from docs. The same as for cons weapons - want weapon upgrades for cons - use docs.
And you again - they have to tech to be build - that's why they get the snare. I know doctrines - but it changes nothing - with doctrines cons can do even more than grens (AT nades, ppsh, hit the dirt, to name just a few). The problem is that the unit has more abilities than grens (for free) and is build form t0. I costs the same. Yet can be ugraded more through the game.
I remember that some time ago grens was in T0, while mg-42 was locked in T1 building. Want make reverse?
Want 5-man grens - use doc.
It's not about what I want - it is about being objective. Allies have more powerful units with more abilities in general and some people keep repeating that grens or ost has more snares etc. It is just not true. Allies have more AT infantry soultions that are cheap and don't require tech. Cons are the only ones that need to pay a bit for their snare. But they are 6 man, can build cover, can merge and hoorah. All with no tech and from tier 0.
How much you saw in competitive games that someone go to T1 and after make sidetech to AT-nades and build cons? I almost never. Only tank-hunter doc could give you such combo tactic. All SU almost every game play or penals or cons. But i almost never saw penals + cons even in low tiers game. If you think i am wrong you could saw Dane streams where he comment SU games, try to find wher you see such combo as you described.
I could give you tip how to use faust with other AT squads: grens with faust and pgrens with shrecks - very potent combo.
If you have other ideas how make cons PLAYABLE in game, instead of this Mobile Reserve upgrade (or maybe you have ideas for WHOLE redesign of unit - that make it playable, without current abilities and techs), it will be good to hear. Because no one want again play only in T1 penals. I think you remember the last champs (1vs1 and 2vs2) all SU almost every game go to penals not cons.
I know what they build - still it is a thread about grens/cons balance. My point is grens are not better when it comes to their snares. I would say the opposite is true - cons are larger squads and can hoorah with a snare - this alone makes them better at snaring than grens.
Don't give me tips - just be more objective - Sov have many more non-doc snare possibilities while ost has only one on grens. Soviet can egip more squads with at weapons (some of them for free) and have both the snare and at weapons on penals.
You make it sound like playing soviets is an auto lose. Are you playing the same game? Soviets are very strong right now and 7 men cons are very strong. There is a reason many people favor playing soviets over Ostheer, it is because it is still a faction that allows you to make a million mistakes and come back. Ostheer is basically a one mistake is insta lose kind of faction. A lot more fun and frustrating at the same time too.
Exactly. Just weird to hear about OP grenadiers from a faction that has penals/guards/shocktroops. Uses sniper to shoot at 4 men squads. Has 170manpower engineers etc. Just incredible. I'm not even going to mention other stuff like soviet tanks/katusha/arty. etc. And they keep repeating that ost has best support weapons. Incredible, just incredible.
Question to mrgame2 and achpawel:
Which modes do you play? The Axis MGs with their bigger arc usually perform better in smaller modes. Main reasons for that is the lower abundance of arty, the larger territory that needs to be covered to prevent flanks and vehicles generally come later.
Apart from that:
OST has been voted to be the most balanced faction by after all 27 votes. OST units underperforming is simply untrue stat wise which is supported by the general feeling of the community.
Now to the MG part:
Comparing MG vs MG to deduce efficiency is honestly quite foolish. You compare units based on how they fulfill tasks they are not designed for. We also don't compare how quickly Ostwind and Centaur kill each other to deduce which unit is more cost efficient.
The main task of MGs is infantry suppression and this has NOT changed over the lifetime of the game, no matter how often you want to call that "old mindset".
A suppressed infantry squad is basically taken out of the fight because it almost can't move, abilities are next to unusable and DPS is heavily reduced. I honestly can't believe that someone tried to make the point that Allied MGs are better by backing it up with the argument that they pin a unit later so they can deal more damage. With all respect, but that is just a plain stupid argument.
It's not that Axis MGs are better in every single stat. Usually Allies MGs deal more damage, but when it comes to the main task, area control and suppression, Axis MGs generally do a better job. If you want a damage dealer, you should get another main line infantry squad.
Don't call people stupid that exasily - it's not nice. I play allies a lot and know well what I'm writing about. I only reply to anti ost threads because most players love to boost allies and pretend not to see that. Ost players just don't defend themselves and allies will soon turn ostheer into a faction that nobody will play with in 1v1.
Penals AT satchels good, but you must sacrifice 2 mens on it and lose almost 30% of squad AI power. Also penals don't have sprint and AT-satchel need usage or: sightblockers or very bad play from axis player.
Guards have "free" AT, but it good only against light armor, you can't fight with PTRS rifles against ostwind or P4. OST have various docs with panzer smoke that completely turn off AT satchels and guards slow down ability.
Only USF have crew repairs, not all allies. SU have in docs.
Each faction have different design - OST don't have light tanks, but have weapon upgrades without need to pay for sidetech. OST have one of the best mg in game in T0 with AP bullets in vet1. You even could upgrade pgrens with shrecks and got very powerfyll AT squad (if you use doc with OST clowncar, you even could play "ost shreck mini-bus"). OST have stun abilities in stug and in pak40, that as AT much better than UKF and SU ATG. Only USF ATG could be better. And teller mines that instakill any light vehicle.
You still think that OST have worse AT abilities than allies? Against light vehicles on early-mid game you have much than enough AT abilities.
Most of what you wrote is just difficult to comment because it suggests you should play ostheer in the next 10-20 games, but when I have some time I'll explain why it is difficult to agree with many things you wrote. Generally you must realise that OKW is much stronger than ostheer and some of your impressions are based on OKW's strengths (like volks being pretty potent all around squad with a snare).
The problem from the topic is about cons vs grens balance. IMO conscripts are better at at duties because of their hoorah ability. Grens just don't have that and they have trouble fausting and chasing - sth conscripts can do. Cons are build from tier 0 and grens need a structure - so you don't tech to build cons but you tech to give them extras; you tech to build grens but you don't tech to give them panzerfaust. Cons are 6 or 7 men while grens are 4 so it is easier to wipe grens with vehicles they snare. Cons also build sandbags, grens don't. It is easier to sniper gren than cons. Hoorah can chase and even allow you to kill snipers or run away from them plus higher number of models makes it safer. Cons can be also used to merge, which is verypowerful ability. Coming back to snares there are many more ways in which cons can cooperate with other AT squads. Cons hoorah and snare, penals stchel and fonish off.
But the frustration comes when you see that your micro is better but you get ovelwhelmed by a total noob due to them having better infantry, better mg, better mortar and exploiting crutch units. You reposition, bite, mine, lure, adapt... ...and they just bum rush and then they tell you that you have better mgs, better infantry and better mortarts. Mg42 is not better - its just an mg. There are better mgs in game on allied side.
Ost Faust is unlocked with T1, which is the same building that trains Grens in the first place...? You don't play for fausts on Grens.
... but at the same time time you don't need to build anything to have riflemen, canscripts, sections. To build grens you need to tech. That's typisal assymetry but everybody pays.
Side tech costs delay progression. With Axis, you get fausts with progression. There's a difference spending manpower and fuel just for AT nades that doesn't offer units and having a tech building built.
It's a very small cost and only for one of 3 alled factions. Amercian get it with vet (but can equip bazookas on any unit they want); UK gets the snare on their engineers, and SOV only must pay a bit for sidetech (looking at prices of their buildings and no need to research tech phases the cost is very small and not even evens out the tech requiremt for ost). ALso they get extremely powerful snares on ptrs penals with no tech cost. And guards come with free at weapons.
Also remember that ostheer does not have a light vehicle that has armor immune to small arms. Allies have such vehilces, plus crew repairs. Armor/anti armor weaponry power ratio is better for each allied faction compared to ostheer (they have much better light vehicles and better snares and anty tank upgrades)
Also remember that there are 3 allied facrions vs 2 axis - it also favours allies. Generally OKW is much better than ost in this area. But ost is is weaker here.
You can google nicks on relics leaderboards, not all of us are hiding on forums under different one.
That being said, I do have a smurf for 1v1 and RTs since I'm playing exclusively AT on my main account and currently am accepting applications.
So you just look for it on relic webpage? ok. What is RTs or AT? (I don't mind smurfing tbh - it used to be a problem but they seem to have improved sth in mechanics, or fewer smurfs, idk - I don't do it cause I have too little time to play and I'm not too worried about stats - if I learn to play with shortcuts one day... ...then maybe) What are you accepting applications for?
There problem with sandbags, and specially small section ones, is that they end up been too prominent and have way more utility if given to units you expect 3/4 of them and possible be able to spam them till 5/6.
Bunkers on the other hand, do have a cost, can't be spammed anywhere, need an orientation, forces you to not use abilities and you have less control of the unit once inside of it.
You are underestimating the impact of giving Grenadiers sandbags. It would be 10 times stronger than the change of letting Rifles build mines with 4 entities instead of 2.
Keeping one of the last tokens of asymmetry alive, i would like seeing tested, bunkers with cheaper build cost and most of the mp cost be moved towards the MG upgrade or healing upgrade, making the reinforce bunker competitive cost wise. No one is going to use 150mp bunkers as cover.
That is a bloody good idea I was too afraid to suggest similar ideas as I think that this might be a bigger revolution than the sandbag. I'm also a bit scared that suggesting anything that can even indirectly buff ost is frowned upon on this forum (even if it is unbiased and logical).
Maybe is my small sample testing, but my mg42 drops model faster to m1/mosin, than my mp40 crew killing allies support crew.
Hence why i say mg42 support crew is worse off. Obviously maxim have more support crew more dps.
Btw 50cal is so op in reposition timing. Best pack up and deploy times, best damage, has ap ability too. Imo best mg is usf mg. No way is mg42
It's all true - mg42 is only better at suppresing large groups from my experience - don't feel bad about what you saw. All allies mgs are better in 1v1 against 4 man squads than mg42 is against 5,6 or 7 man squads. People evaluating mgs often forget that their mgs are used against 4 man squads and mg42 shoots at bigger squads.
Another reason why allied mgs are better in 1v1 is that they pin a tiny bit more slowly. Pinning enemy quickly makes the pinned unit take less damge. So when an mg42 quickly pins a squad, such squad has lost less health and can stay under fire relativeluy long. Because these squads are 5,6 or seven models, it means that they have more health, which makes it possible for them to stay under fire longer (in coh2 each model has exactly the same amount of health irrespective if it is 4,5,6 or 7 man squad). They way damage is distributed when under mg fire also helps as damage is more or less evenly distributed for each model. This means that you will more likely lose health than models, which means you won't bleed much manpower staying pinned for relatively long. When retreating after relatively long period you are likely to need healing more than reinforcing. Since healing is free you won't lose much even when you have stayed under mg42 fire for quite long (enough to flank it etc.)
Allied mgs, however, pin units more slowly so they deal quite a lot of damge to them before the unit gets pinned and that's why allied mgs often manage to kill a model on an ostheer squad before pinning it. The fact that ostheer infantry is mostly 4 models means that it has less health. Less health means that the unit will stay under mg fire for a shorter period of time. Both dealing more damage before pinning the squad and the fact that ostheer squads are 4 man means that allied mgs are better. Allied mgs force ostheer squads to retreat much more quickly from their arc than mg42 makes allied infanty retreat from its arc. Also as ost you are way more likely to lose manpower (models) attacked by allied mg while mg42 will mostly drain health from allied squads.
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