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Dude the ZiS gun can easily pen it's frontal armor, I don't know what your trying to say when it flies directly in the face of reality. Lay a few mines, and the minute it gets engine damage it's dead.
The Panther is not A move friendly at all, it sucks ass at pushing defensive formations because it's weak to AT guns and TD's at max range, it also can't be used at the front of a column because you need to be sweeping for mines.
When you want to "A move" and assault an enemy position you want units like the Sturmtiger, or maybe a stuka to soften up the enemy. Even a Puma can use smoke to close the distance.
T34/85's are by no means mediocre, they are very cost effective at only 140 fuel and 800 health. Good speed, good performance VS infantry and still has a good crush like the T34. |
No, it doesn't.
Lack of alpha strike over area and barrage extended duration make it perfectly possible for AT gun or whatever is in the area to simply retreat often without casualties.
Bigger scatter values also doesn't make it easier in the slightest.
Also, as it was said already 328918 times in this thread, katy is supposed to shoot from afar and pwerfer from closer proximity.
Asymmetrical balance you know. Same cost, similar role, different execution.
Except the Pwerfer used to be used at exactly the same range the Katyusha was until it had it's rocket amount lowered and it's ability to hit at range decreased.
This isn't asymmertrical balance; it's idiocy. Why should a 85 fuel + teching cost HT that dies in 1 hit have to be used in closer ranges than mortars are used to be effective at all?
And the AT gun or infantry blob can simply move as well, since the area you will be hitting will be rather small. The Kat is able to bombard a larger area and do more damage over a larger area allowing it to deny territory and break up defensive formations. You can't move your AT gun back into line until it stops firing.
With the Pwerf once you dodge it that's it, it doesn't break up any defensive lines because once you dodge it that's it, you can move right back to where you were. |
And oh Expert at Vet 2 what does the Panther have?
What is the point of this? It's been pointed out multiple times the Panther can be penned and killed, it's weak to infantry based AT because of it's poor AI performance.
Soviets don't have an issue killing it, and USF merely needs to get more AT options other than the Jackson. The issue is not the Panther, the issue is USF lacking AT options outside just making Jackson's and invalidating Medium tanks.
EDIT: It will always only bounce 50% of shots max from the Jackson, SU-85 and ZiS, no more. |
The P4 is CRUSHED by the Jackson similar to how an Elephant will crush a T34. As USF its hard to flank anything. Since 9/10 times the highest HP Pool youll get is 640. And most are below that. Flanking is punished Heavily. You need to ENCIRCLE to receive any reward as flanking can still result in a front hit.
In Essence trying to flank in 90% of cases is a bad idea.
So the Jackson must engage at Max Range where its DPS and its Pen is the weakest.
The Panther on the other hand like an LMG can just A move. Seeing a Pattern Here? Shreks A move, Obers? A move Panther? A move.
Because its too fast to be encircled and too much armor and HPs to be killed frontally unless you just suck or the RNG gods hate you.
Blitz is a problem but I would say the Armor/HPs are a bigger problem. I honestly have an easier time taking out a KT then a Panther. Because things can escape the KT. Its big and its slow and GOD HELP IT if it takes Engine Damage.
An Engine Damaged Panther using ROAD BLITZ is faster then most tanks who are not also on a road. So Engine damage is not punished on the Panther as its still fast and just needs to reverse.
If people dont want the reduce its Armor for lore purposes FINE! 640 HPs. DONE.
There is no need for it to have more armor then a Tiger and More Speed with More Range and almost the same amount of HPs arriving at the 12 min mark in a 1v1.
USF needs AI armor to deal with things like Obers and Officer Backed G43 Pfuse. But the Panther punishes that it makes the unholy OKW Trifecta. Shreks, Obers, Panther. There is no weakness in that build. Only Strength.
The KT has a far, far higher chance to bounce a shot from an SU-85 than a Panther has, and the KT does more DPS than a Panther.
It doesn't have "almost the same" It has 240 less HP than a Tiger, The Panther has 800 health which is exactly the same as a T34/85.
You keep forgetting the Panther cost over 40-45 fuel more than any other medium tank in the game. Why should such an expensive and costly unit preform or have the same stats as units that cost far less than it?
If Blitz is a problem that needs to be addressed, but nerfing the Panther will just make it so nobody builds it anymore because people don't like paying 175 fuel for eh units. You will just see more Tiger spam from Ostheer and more shrek spam from OKW. The JPIV might get used more but everyone who went Mechanized HQ as OKW would get screwed.
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LOL OMG! No Relic did not say that. Quinn Duffy said it is possible but probably wouldnt help anything. Nowhere did he ever say that Side armor was not possible.
You misquote ALOT of things.
And still waiting on why buffing DPS and taking away God Armor is a bad idea. Still waiting...
They don't have god armor, they only have 20 more than a Tiger. They also have 200 less health than a Tiger.
And Relic has said reverse accelerations and side armor is not going to happen, which is what I said.
As pointed out earlier, the ZiS, Jackson, and SU-85 all have a 50% chance or more to pen the Panthers frontal "god" armor. |
Panzerwerfer does fire all of its rockets in ONE volley and this makes it all the difference and justifies its cost. If you know how to micro Kats and Panzerwefers, the player can do serious damage to support weapons, and lets not forget Ambulance placements. Kat rightfully so is more effective BUT the the volly of rockets can be dodged after the first shot pretty easily. Panzerwerfer leaves no room to dodge.
Off course no Kat Panzerwefer going to suck at range, scatter is terrible on both.
Kat at max range has a far higher chance to hit something than the werfer does. Still of course the chance is not high, but a rocket artillery HT shouldn't have to be used at point blank range, it just means you could do the same with getting more mortars.
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And changing frontal armour, if necessary, is. Etc, etc.
If you nerfed the frontal armor of the Panther then you would have to nerf the frontal armor of the Tiger.
See how these issues start to compound? The Panther just needs to not have warp speed thanks to blitz, that's all. |
I'd say to just to stick with removing Blitzkrieg from it first. Probably 99% of any problems with it lie there, because it NASCARing into your lines' vulnerable areas (or just reversing out) is eminently ridiculous. The rest of it might not be so intolerable without that.
I'd imagine anyone who wants that is figuring that for the same reasons the Panther in-game allohistorically has no side armour and has six more gears in reverse.
Relic has stated Side Armor and Different reverse accelerations are not actually possible. |
Because the next balanced one is SC2, which I have already told I'm not into.
Other RTS games are lolworthy or HD remakes of games I played over a decade ago and moved on.
And I'm hardly the only one thinking this way.
SC2 and CoH2 is the absolute best the genre can offer to a player at the moment.
I wouldn't call a game as well fleshed out as War Game "lol worthy" when Relic can't even be arsed to add in side armor or different reverse accelerations. |
You for real?
I've said TDs have 50% chance to pen at max range.
You've said TDs have 50% chance to pen at max range.
You proved me wrong how exactly?
If anything, you reinforced my argument of TDs being ineffective.
And that 3 shots will take approx 12 seconds*
*inb4 stupid argument-panther doesn't reload when it sees the target, it shoots, then reloads next round.
TD's are not ineffective, at all. 50% chance to pen against the most armored Axis turreted tank in the game except the KT is fairly good for non-doc TD's. Not to mention the fact that You will have 8% better pen against the Tiger than the Panther, and the Tiger is not nearly as fast nor does it have as much range.
The Panther takes a minimum of 11.6 seconds and your assuming of course like you said you weren't shoot at anything else beforehand.
3 shots it's 17.4 seconds minimum. Of course if you average it out it will actually take 18.75 seconds to make 3 shots if you reloaded for your first one.
Regardless, The only issue the Jackson has is that Panthers and Tigers can escape to easily using Blitz and every agrees Blitz shouldn't be in the game in it's current form. |
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