Ah, good. I was contradicting that lone statement, so im happy to see real support.
I was thinking about those completely useless Ostheer and SU commanders made in early CoH2 time which we all know and make fun of.
Thanks!
I appreciate when people take time to try to actually see what others are saying and debate points and play devil's advocate with out flaming them or being a jerk. |
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I will stick with my favorite 2 factions for starters (wehr and SU) but I welcome everyone to contribute their ideas for making these units more relevant.
SU:
Dshka MG - It is more expensive than maxim, doesn't do enough damage or suppression over maxim to justify this unit. The only use is as a fill in for T2 which is something but I would like to see this unit have lower suppression than maxim/mg42 but have a heck of a lot more damage so that it can shred infantry who don't get out of its narrow cone of fire and it could be a reasonable form of Anti-Vehicle deterrence as it was in reality.
Irregulars - Like the idea as these kinds of troops were leveraged so heavily by the SU but they are too weak/too small squad size to be more than a niche situation unit...especially when you consider the rest of this doctrine and what it gives up they should either 1. have larger squad size 2. be given DP-28/PTRS upgrades 3. maybe both
KV-1 - Compared to other off map heavies it doesn't deliver enough firepower/mobility to be a true alternative although it isn't a complete waste as it give SU a nice spearhead that can absorb more AT fire power than the 34/76 tank.
Wehr:
Le Howitzer - Very MP expensive, very weak to numerous off map abilities/katyusha/B4 what have you, and it doesn't have the range or accuracy to be much of a threat to the mobile soviets...i only use it in large team games or vs usf in 2v2 who spam fighting positions.
Assault Grenadiers - Many people who use them try to make them their base line infantry which is a mistake and shouldn't be their role in game design, but for how much they cost to reinforce and the fact they have to be on top of infantry to deal damage, they should be made more expensive on initial investment and be given some kind of AI upgrade option such as STG44s for half the squad...keep their lack of infantry ability so that soviets can have early game counters even if they go T1.
250/251 HT - It should be cheaper on call in as it doesn't reinforce or fight, the extra fuel and MP cost over the gren with LMG or PG squad make it a risky investment without a whole lot of reward.
Please feel free to tell me where I am wrong or suggest other units.
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Then all commanders with no call in tanks should have an OP ability. 
it should be taken into account, for instance the elefant is hardly OP on its own as a call in but if you were to put it in a doc with tiger call ins and storm trooper call in well that would be OP becuase of such a great array of elite units you can call in.
Or SU having T34/85 callin with IS-2 and KV8 and shocks and guards all in one commander.
Point number 2, why do you think SU and Wehr for instance barely use any commanders with no heavy tanks...because the other abilities aren't enough to compensate for the opportunity cost (a little econ term  ) of passing up Tigers/Elefants.
Bottom line, entire commander array of abilites has to be considered as well as base army in deciding if ability is OP or not. Its why I don't think P47 is OP because USA needs to have a doctrine that greatly boosts AT capabilities as that is the core weakness of their base army...but thankfully for them the commander comes with great AB infantry call ins. |
Looks just as broken and overpowered as P-47. But does the Axis really need something of that calibre to go with its already strong Late Game tanks?
it does if it comes in a doctrine with no call in tanks. |
Yeah they buffed the hell out of it last patch. And now we have this, since Relic don't know how to or don't bother to actually play test their changes.
Um, what? You think Incendiary Barrage is game breaking? You do realise that when you see that Red Smoke you can just walk out of it... like every other off-map arty ever except for strafing runs which do have smoke but have a massive radius that can't be dodged. If you're having problems with off maps abilities that are completely dodgeable then I think it says something about your skill level and how valid your opinion is on balance.
Also Incendiary does not instantly shred 80% off any tank (apart from IS2), nor does it instantly 80% infantry. It only works at forcing MG's and AT guns to make up before a big push, or area deny.
Insta-wipe IL2 of the past was OP and game breaking with no chance for counterplay... that's why it was nerfed. That's how balance works.
incendy isn't breaking, but it can be dropped just behind AT guns and they can't get back fast enough to not be burned to death and if you move forward well you are going to die that way too and give your enemy a Pak gun.
great off map arty isn't a bad thing but on shock rifle commander, it comes with beastly infantry call in, great AI tank (KV8) and the IS-2 super heavy...pretty much no holes in that commander...most commanders only have 2 of those things not all 3 (great tanks, great off map, great inf) |
222 has always sucked, except when relic changed the cover system then it became OP for a little while and then it was nerfed.
It's barely a counter to snipers.
I never buy it and instead get the half track for quick reinforce and flame upgrade at t2.
What if it got a buff to being harder to hit when on the move? might make more survivable. It's total trash atm if there's any american player because of bazookas.
after the flammenwerfer nerf, it seems like a huge risk for 120 muni's, I mean they have to get so close to unleash their flames that an oorah conscript will easily be able to AT nade you unless you are supremely careful or always have mg support. i like using them as reinforcement then if they get to vet 2, put flames on.
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wehr mortar is generally better and you can get one for each mortar. else, support team spam like maxim spam, is generally countered by mortar halftrack which is somewhat resilient to mortar fire.
if he goes 4, 2 mht should generally counter all his support team on the field. muni cache and spam away incendiary rounds. plus being in semoskiy, there's a lot of buildings in the middle to cover direct fire units so mht spam should be extremely viable.
this, plus ur teammate going straight to t3 with gren and infantry spam, a good incnediary hit plus a move grens with gratuitous use of rifle nades, should control the tide of crappy soviet infantry and support teams, p4 to end it.
of course a mortar HT is great counter, but that is doctrinal and wasn't in my load out and my mortars got lots of kills but eventually they were double teamming me with counter barrages and that is 12 mortar members vs 4 of mine so that was a problem.
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You're doing it wrong.
Minute 15:
583/192/194
547/161/341
No T3 tech.
Ok, so I should be going T3 as soon as there is enough fuel for tech/building/p4? |
Oh! Oh! I know!
The first one is the 222, the second one is the M3.
Seriously, why do you guys need something that costs only 15 to be a wrecking machine? You know why the luchs is so much better? Because it costs 50 ( or 75 if you want to take into account okw fuel econ ) fuel.
It costs only 20 mp more than a m3 scout car, which it demolishes once it gets the autocannon. With proper micro it can kill an M20 as well, which costs 20 fuel. Should we also buff the M20 then?
M3 available immediately, needs no ammo upgrade and can carry units to project power....222 needs 55 ammo to be worth a darn, requires tech which means an opponent will have some kind of counter out if they aren't being foolish/overconfident.
If it gets better armor, which it should to not be so intensive it should also get a MP and fuel cost increase so it isn't a cheap shredder but it will still be dead meat to guards/zis and a single at nade from a conscript with oorah which slows it to a crawl. |
Sure the 222 has same level of HP with M3 and has autocannon. But 222 comes out later than M3. And it need 55 munitions to upgrade autocannon weapon.
222 can kill a M20? You must be joking... M20 crews have bazookas man... The crew can just abondond the vehicle and make 222 stoping firing on M20 and kill 222.
Lol at first post...one conscript staying near a sniper squad will be able to AT nade the car as soon as it gets close to where sniper is as sniper simply moves to position con squad between them and the car...then the engine on 222 is knocked out and the car will die a 4-5 seconds later to bolt action rifles of the squad  don't even start to think about chasing the sniper if there are guards around.
On top of that you lose 55 ammo when the unit goes down if upgraded...if we make its armor better which it should then it certainly needs a price increase to prevent spamming/OP'ness but it would be much more useful than its current state. |
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