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I dont think Grens need a 5th man. I think the idea behind the higher reinforcement cost is in case of a smaller squad a single entity represents higher firepower. I mean if you have a single grens model, each member provides you 25% firepower, while in case of a 5 men squad its 20%.
So if i would change anything about Grens, its their received accuracy reduction. I think 4 men squads should generally have more received accuracy reduction. Except maybe IS, because they have an option to upgrade with a 5th man. |
the volks doesn't need the schreck as long as they get the faust.
The volks are inherently more durable against vehicle due to their extra squad size, and the okw get access to better vehicle than the 222. I would actually say the volks are superior to the grenadier in the beginning before upgrades and vet kicks in.
if gren+222+pak can handle the stuart, than the volks +luch + raketen can certainly do the same.
As for lack of weapon upgrade, the volks have 5 levels of veterancy. Just give them extra strong veterancy in place of weapon upgrade, or give them weapon upgrade from vet. Instead of buying their weapon upgrade, the volks has to earn them in combat.
That would drop down volks to the bottom of the food chain. As soon as allied infantries start to get their weapons, volks could not keep up with them. Imagine the veterancy buff that is required to keep up with double LMGs. Not to mention you just decreased the number of munition sinks for OKW.
Also there are 3 allied faction. Each represent kinda different options and gamestyles. While on axis side there are only two factions, and this change would just make them more similar. |
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If you upgrade volks with a schreck its -20% less AI power. I dont think anyone should have any problem to handle a 4 men volks squad with majority of the allied infantry units.
Sure schrecks counter vehicles, especially light ones, but i think its pretty trivial NOT to feed the enemies main AT with vehicles. Like OKW want to remove guards PTRS because it counter light vehicles...
Ofcourse if you keep pushing your vehicles into schreck blobs, then volks can gain vet pretty fast. Sadly allied infantry on vet3 usually perform better than volks on vet5. Not to mention again, allied weapon upgrades INCREASE the infantries AI power, while Volks upgrade DECREASE it compared to the 5 men full potential.
So MAYBE if your opponent invest 240MU and 750MP into volks+panzerschreck, and goes AT, its not a vehicle you should use for counter.
Anyway if relic would bother to fix the OverNerfedSoldaten to be an actual cost efficient AI solution for OKW, then there would be some extra space to balance volks aswell.. maybe force another squad member inactive when a panzerschreck is upgraded, so the single schreck upgrade could decrease their efficiency with -40% |
I agree than 90 munitions isn't cheap for one Panzershreck. That's not the problem. The problem is that the Panzershreck, as it stands right now, allows OKW players to get pretty decent AT for no fuel and no real manpower. This means OKW players don't really have to think very much about dealing with most Allied vehicles, thing as there's a soft-counter readily available.
Ostheer by comparison, must invest significant amounts of manpower in either PaKs or Panzergrenadiers to get early and mid-game AT. And, unlike Volksgrenadiers, Panzergrenadiers with Shrecks are pretty terrible against infantry.
Hmm... when you look at them:
- Pgrens are 320MP spend 120MU on 2 schrecks, lose -50% of their AI while gain lets say 200% AT
- Volks are 250MP spend 90MU on 1 schreck, lose -20% of their AI while gain 100% AT
Sure Pgrens are not much of a use against infantry after the upgrade. But Volks cannot be upgraded with any AI weapon. How much competition they show against double LMG allied squads, or 3 SMG close range units. There was a time when people built Obersoldaten, but after they received double nerf, i would rather build a couple more volks to cut the deal. People just demand nerf on anything OKW throws against them without brain. Just look at this thread... half of the posts is like "remove schreck" without ever thinking the consequences it could cause. This is not balancing imo...
Anyway, if i should suggest something it would be:
- Increase OKW Volks price to 260 MP
- Lock Panzerschreck behind medi-truck tech
- Add MP40 upgrade locked behind repair-truck tech
- Add one-time research upgrade to both Screcks and MP40s (for 100MP+20FU)
- Decrease weapon upgrade price from 90 MU to 60 MU
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they scale.. they also have doctrinal AI upgrade |
Where did I say that lol?
I mean too cheap :-) |
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How about changing the water balloons it fires, to actual shells... |
Hmm, "3 times in a row" seems working perfectly as intended as only 1 out of this 4-man squad uses a g43 sniper rifle
I dont know if its intended or not, but i dont like how they perform. For me a single volks squad is more reliable and with volks i dont lock myself to a certain doctrine. I never picked a doctrine explicitly for JLI.
I would love to use falls more often but they die too fast which i never understood why this is. Target size could be a bit better for such a costly elite unit. But 0.87 seem to be not that bad. So do they really have a very specific squad grouping behaviour which causes this problem?
I love falls performance, but yes i agree, sometimes they are too fragile. They are really good in certain situation, but i find it pretty complicated to keep them alive after they lose the element of surprise.
PF are indeed the most cost effective option even though jli are not far behind for what they offer in utiity.
PF are the most failsafe one from all these three.. but PF should be 0 CP unit and their G43 upgrade should be locked behind T1. |
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I like Falls the most. They pop out from buildings, deal a nice amount of DPS at all range. Sure they are expensive and fragile, but they also deadly if they are used properly.
I dont like Pfusiliers much. I find both the squad and their upgrade too expensive for my needs. For a bit more ammo IS and Rifles can grow better with their double upgrades. The only difference is those can be built from start, while Fusiliers require CP.
I think JLI are useless, or i use them in a completely wrong way. I dont know why people like this unit, but ive stopped playing with them when they missed 3 times in a row to kill a low HP model of a squad. With that accuracy i wouldnt call it "sniping". |
Volks have two problems. One, the Panzershreck provides OKW with crutch AT that allows them to fend off vehicles at extremely low cost (don't have to spend manpower or fuel on specialized AT weapons). Two, the Panzershreck gives way too much veterancy.
Honestly, I've supported removing the Panzershreck from Volks for ages, but I'm concerned the faction will be very weak without it. Removing Panzershreck makes the faction more-or-less reliant on the Raketenwerfer and Puma for early and mid-game AT, and I'm not sure that's enough.
90 MU for a single panzerschreck on an infantry that cannot be upgraded with anything else is too cheap? I dont think so..
Also the veterancy has been changed, but its not the schrecks fault. If someone thinks schreck hits provide too much veterancy, then removing the weapon itself is not a solution for the problem. |
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