You are right, both types were used throughout the war, but historical accuracy is not respected: MG42 was cheaper to produce, since it was a simplified design of the MG34 (actually half the build time, and 60% cost) In the game we have a cheaper MG34 => first inaccuracy.
MG42 had also the higher fire rate of the two, with 1200 rpm (upgraded to 1800 by the end of the war), while MG34 was 'only' firing at 800-900 rpm. The MG34 has a better suppression in game=> second inaccuracy.
MG34 production was also halted when MG42 entered mass-production, but it saw use until the end of the war, mostly it's vehicle variant, MG34T.
Accuracy would mean (and yes, i know i am nitpicking here, because it is not relevant to balance) that infantry support HMG of Wehrmacht should be MG34 (since this is the incarnation of the German army of 1940 - 1943), and the infantry version of the Oberkommando weapon should be MG42 (German army from 1943 -1945). Both faction's vehicles should be named MG34 though, as MG42 saw almost no use as a vehicle machine gun.
As for the details, i only know what wikipedia has to offer, i actually do not know what were soldiers of that time frame thoughts about the two versions. Apparently, MG42 (thanks to the simplified design) was more robust and lighter, and would resist to dust a bit more, while being a bit more prone to overheat than the MG34.
To say nothing of the other absurdities in OKW (and the German faction design in general), yes, it's bothered me since day 1 that the MG42 was used in the Eastern Front (It was, but not until after Stalingrad, basically). The fire rate difference between the 34 and 42 is due to a difference in the locking system of each weapon within the action. The barrel was prone to overheating, but this isn't much of an issue considering that a portable drum magazine (around 50 rounds) prevented this from happening, while the belt-feed HMG variants could simply change the barrel.
Both were extremely effective machine guns, but the MG42 was better in basically every aspect. That the MG34 as a weapon performs better (even for other factions) is a travesty and reflects how poorly designed and ill-conceived OKW is in general, especially from a historical standpoint.
This is to say nothing of the Maxim, of course. I'm in favor of replacing the Maxim with the much more common and sensible Goryunov SG43, or even a DP squad, for crying out loud. This is coming from a mainly Soviet player, too.
To reply to the OP, yes, this is something that has bothered me since OKW was released. It's absurd that they get an HMG that is cheaper, yet just as effective as any other comparable unit. Also, it can get up to vet 5 and kill light vehicles, too. Yup. Part of the OKW doctrine of "weaknesses, but not really because we patched them to not have any." It's all a big mess. |
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Elite Riflemen:
The main issue with this ability is that it invalidates all other commanders for the Americans, especially given the strength of the doctrine itself. I don't think the problem is with the doctrine, but rather that the other doctrines are a bit too weak by comparison.
Also, can we get a pack howitzer buff? The Americans are in desperate need of something to break MG spam.
Soviet Weapon Team:
If you're going to do this, please don't make this a flat-out nerf. Maxim spam is a response to Oberkommando, because it is effective at early game map control if the OKW player mis-micro's and can't use grenades on his volks or flank with Sturmpios. I am okay with the change because it promotes the use of actual infantry, but if that's the intended goal, then please buff conscripts or penals because they don't really stand a chance against OKW infantry; without a buff, the only infantry that will really be used are doctrinal infantry, which will make the majority of Soviet commanders even more worthless than they already are. I understand wanting to make these weapon teams mortal, but Soviet infantry are already weak enough in my opinion.
Long Range Lethality:
This is an interesting subject. On the one hand, Obersoldaten are near impossible to beat with other infantry, but on the other hand, if long range damage gets nerfed then the blobs of riflemen or bumrushing Sturmpioneers will become even more difficult to deal with. I feel like this issue needs to be looked at in a more precise unit-to-unit basis rather than as a whole subject. |
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For either the Ostheer or OKW, there are a variety of options available for beating Maxims. Whether or not the unit is overpowered or you lose the micro in the engagement is subject, of course, but I feel it's worth noting that Grenadier rifle grenades are extremely potent against them, as are basically any other grenade in the game. The Ostheer also have access to smoke from various sources- if Axis players actually learned how to use them, especially in team games, I doubt we'd see nearly as much whining about Maxim spam. For any team, throwing one grenade to kill the gunner and then closing in with basically any other infantry gets the job done on the MG. If there are multiple firing in roughly the same arc, well, maybe it's time to flank to a different part of the map.
As an aside, I've noticed Axis players are very fond of spamming MG's themselves, which is hard to beat if you've done nothing but blob infantry. Honestly, a lot of the time it comes down to how well you micro the engagement, which most people would probably argue means the units are probably balanced. I dunno. Considering you can get a flak truck fairly quickly as OKW, and start pumping Obersoldaten and the Luchs, you have a fairly potent anti-MG spam force of your own. I really don't see the problem everyone else seems to be having. |
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The problem is with the tech system, especially with the Soviets, who have literally no reason to do anything but use commanders with infantry and tank call-ins. Fix the non-doctrinal units and tech system and this issue will evaporate. |
Agree, like someone said before;
Doctrinal infantry are meant to supplement your force but I see more people using them as their force.
One thing I always didn't understand, why should volksgrenadiers, grenadiers, osttruppen have different damage output? Wouldn't it make more sense if it the difference between them was accuracy instead of damage? Maybe Conscripts, Volks and osttruppen should have lower damage because the number of men (gameplay reason) but getting hit by a 7.92mm isn't really much different from getting hit by a 7.62 right? If the damage of conscripts, osttruppen were higher, then they would be more useful right?
I thought that was the whole point of the Turning Point update a while back, when they added in increased weapon lethality. Now Oberkommando is here and the units are inherently tougher than any other faction's, which means, well... that infantry just run out in the open, ignoring the cover system entirely because weapons aren't lethal enough or punishing enough to OKW infantry, especially ones that aren't behind cover. Most Soviet players are opting out of using any conscripts, it seems, and rightly so, because without PPSh's they can't do anything versus OKW infantry. So instead we see Maxim spam, which Relic is now threatening to nerf, rather than looking at what provoked this meta in the first place. The high weapon lethality is what makes CoH so special, in my opinion, but now that OKW is here, smart play loses to blobs. It's disgraceful. If the damage were roughly the same, then yeah, they would be pretty useful, but given the low damage, low accuracy, and high health of their adversaries, conscripts are just worthless now. At least Grens are reasonable.
@NinjaWJ: That's the whole point of this proposal. We want the Soviets to have options, like building penal battalions, or SU-76's, rather than being commander-dependent.
@morgoe: Even if the Soviets did rush a T-34 at tier 3 because of a cheaper tech cost, it's not like OKW and the Ostheer don't have ways of beating it (especially OKW). Earlier T-34's/T-70's would certainly give blobbers something to think about.
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Yeah, just one more reason that Armor Company is basically worthless. Wish Relic would mention this is the patchlog |
That pic is pretty good representation of someone who thinks the geographic, timezone, ELO, players already in matches, whatever faction people happen to be playing at the time (including swinging from one to another like you, because they think they get faster matches as the opposite), and the fact we have no idea what the % represents since it was changed from a concrete figure, looks like.
So yes. Keep on thinking that while people who understand the system, laugh.
As I have said. You trying to decide what faction is most popular by looking at your narrow perspective on the matchmaking %, is like you looking at the sky in Denmark, and trying to predict from that the weather in New Zealand. Its just total fail.
Now stop trying to derail.
I would like to remark that the majority of forum balance posts are about OKW units being underpowered, and the Soviets being OP, to the point where Relic is actually considering nerfing the Soviets. Whether or not the queue has something to do with the balance is debatable, but it seems clear that a lot of players would prefer to play Axis. It could mean a lot of things, but to say that i means nothing is ignorant. If one restaurant is more popular than another, it's probably because that one restaurant is better in some respect. I think the same logic applies here.
In response to QueenRatchet's topic:
1. While I think the Pershing would be cool to have, even if only for nostalgia's sake, the American abilities would kind of make it a bit overpowered. All the same, if the USF had better non-doctrinal tanks to begin with, maybe we wouldn't want a Pershing so badly, especially in team games.
2. I understand the infantry variety issue, but... multiple NCO units would be kind of silly. I think Riflemen are an important staple of the USF, complemented by at least decent, if not great doctrinal infantry. The early game is just kind of boring. Then again, the Soviets are stuck spamming Maxims now, so hey, it's not just a USF problem.
3. From what I've seen of Armor Company's and Airborne Thompsons, an upgrade to them probably wouldn't be as useful as you think. The weapon itself seems to kind of flounder around. It's better to keep the Germans at a distance anyhow. |
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I think the Ostheer are, for the most part, balanced in the same way the Soviets are: they have a small selection of dependable units you basically must use to win; there isn't much room to use other tactics. Oberkommando has access to powerful field defenses at essentially no penalty, allowing them to use basically whichever doctrine tickles their fancy. Of course, they usually use a doctrine with MG34's, a unit that, in my honest opinion, is completely and totally broken, as it is essentially a cheaper MG42 team with no build time. I don't understand why anyone thinks this system they have is even remotely balanced in a game based around mobility.
I was recently Kubel rushed on Semoskiy in a 2v2 in the north cutoff point, and by the time we built scout cars to counterattack, the OKW players had already set up an infantry-proof MG field that, as the Soviets, we were completely unable to punch through. OKW gets away with using cheesy units like the Kubel because all of their units are great, even Volks, which for some inexplicable reason are tougher than grens, spawn with grenades, and can upgrade to anti-tank weaponry. OKW also has access to the most reliably powerful artillery in the form of the LeIG and Walking Stuka, in addition to already having powerful units across the board that don't even really cost all that much more. All their penalties have basically been removed by Relic; they make the Panzer Elite blobs look like child's play.
I'm with Kothre on this, who actually was my partner in that 2v2 on Semoskiy. I'm also with Hirmetrium, in that I like OKW's design, but I frankly refuse to play them because it's so ludicrously easy by comparison to any other faction. I feel that the WFA brought blobbing back to CoH, and I'm so frustrated by Relic's balancing decisions that I'm about ready to give up on this game all over again. I hope there's a turning point in the future. |
Hello, dark fire man, I agree with your tier proposal, however I have a few things I don't quite agree with. Mainly the IS-2 in T4. Personally, I think the IS-2 should remain doctrinal just as the Tiger should.
I do think the Soviets need a non-doctrinal heavy tank and instead of the IS-2 I think the KV-1 should be the one that fits quite well in the role.
On another note, I do agree that allied units shouldnt be inhenrently worse than german counter parts, but I think the problem there lies with Soviet Infantry design.
Yeah. I swear that Volks are tougher to kill than normal Grens, even if only because they have 5 men in a squad (which... why? I don't understand). I get that Soviet units are supposed to be weaker, but... then why do they cost almost the same? Why do MG34's cost 210 manpower? Why are Kubels immune to rifle rounds now?
We started this post because we want the Soviets to feel competitive again, but now they're talking about nerfing them because the only strategy that really works, especially in team games, is to spam Maxims, which is actually very easy to counter. Building only tier 2 as the Soviets and relying on call-ins is about the only reliable way to compete against OKW, which you will most likely be facing given the 80% Axis queue. And people whine that they're underpowered. It's ridiculous. |
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While we did forget to mention the 50 fuel that you start out with as the Soviets, it's worth noting that the units themselves in these tiers are not powerful enough to compensate for their cost. Why do Allied units have to be inherently worse than their German counterparts? Why can't Allied units be good? It makes no sense to me. Of course, with the recent Katyusha nerf, there's literally no reason to build tier 4 for the Soviets, so now tank call-ins are basically the Soviets' 1 saving grace in this quickly devolving game balance. |
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