1- I didn't see you a lot asking to remove the TA when is was OP, double standard?. Anyway the barrage is good but not OP, I pointed out that Relic never removed an iconic and "end-game" ability from a doctrine and probably vetoed its removal when Mr.Smith revamped the doctrine. Having it on the jeep is already a nerf compared with what it was before: You didn't need pay for a 200mp squishy unit to deliver it, you only needed vision and munition at that time.
2- I never say the WC51 is what make the doctrine fine, I said Cav and Sherman are mostly useful if you already made a good start - they are not units you built when you are on the backfoot.
Anyway you can make a good start without the WC51 and you can fail making a good start with the WC51.
3- How would you price a unit that can only cap & carry unit with such low HP pool? More than a kubel that can cap and fight? I don't see how you can consider it as a poor argument, atm the moment you want to increase its utility you simply pay for it.
4- Are people spamming the WC51? True question here because the maximum viable I've seen so far is 2 on a 1vs1 commented by Tightrope some months ago. And it was far from a one side match. So I fail to see how suddenly the crew feature becomes a problem here. Is it a problem in your mind because that's a feature that share USF vehicules except 3?
5- Removing the carrying ability is a nerf for Cav, not for the jeep. You're not nerfing the jeep here, what do you want me to say more? That's not going to stop making the jeep an interesting unit to build early game but less interesting to follow it with the Cav. That's not rocket science.
6- So when SPs have to spend munition for early healing that bad because it delays the first STG or mine, when ostheer has to spend munition for healing its bad because it delays the first LMG or mine but in the case of USF that's not really a delay. It is accessible later = Its a delay. Not rocket science here neither.
8- Put a riflesquad inside a un-upgunned WC51 and see how it performs, Hint: not really well for the investment. As far as I know the game you can't have a WC51 AND flamthrower (unless on teamgame with a given), the maximum you can have is Cav which come CP1, much more later than a M3 and you have to invest quite an amount of munition to make it works (.50 + Cav upgrade).
In easier terms, the WC51 becomes a real threat a bit before you can setup your first truck as OKW, that's call windows of opportunity and many units have it.
I don't see you complaining a lot about USF being helpless vs the 221 until it has a riflesquad hitting vet1 or Lieutnant with 1 zook or the M20. Probably because it is as much balanced as the WC51, first one cost fuel but comes fully equiped, the second need 45 munitions to have its gun. Same design different paths.
The WC51 is either OP, in balanced state or UP. A lot of people have presented reasons for why it is OP, if you think it is in a balanced state, please present your counterarguments. That's what he's asking, and for that matter what I'd like to see to.
So far his arguments are its OP because a bunch of people here on the forum, far for being representative of the player population, say so and also because on a tourney last year it has been used 3 times.
I let you rewind the post until my first comment where I give my arguments.
In this thread there have been clear arguments why WC51 is OP even in first post of the thread.
Comparing units like 5 men grenadiers and Ostruppen with WC51 makes not sense, you can compare the abilities thou and that is what I compared.
If you do not like my arguments read the arguments others have already posted including OP.
WC51 is simply OP.
Quoted from you, you say the WC51 is OP and use the number of time it has been used during a tournament as an argument. By the same argument so are 5men grens.
You have no evidence that the WC51 is OP other than your vision of the unit. You can throw list every abilities it had, that doesn't make them an argument.
WC51 is OP regardless of the rest of commander[...]
The commander was the second pick with WC2019 and the WC51 the 3 most built vehicle (not counting the Ambulance) although doctrinal and most build doctrinal vehicle.
I am not comparing anything. I am simply saying that the argument that an ability can not be removed from a commander because people bought the commander does not hold water.
On top of that TOT is probably more powerful.
WC51 is OP regardless of the rest of commander. If the rest of the commander abilities where UP one could argue it was necessary to be OP to carry the commander. That is simply not the case.
The commander was the second pick with WC2019 and the WC51 the 3 most built vehicle (not counting the Ambulance) although doctrinal and most build doctrinal vehicle.
The WC51 can and should be nerfed without causing major issues.
Oh, so 5men gren and Ostruppen are OP by your logic.
Ah no, sorry your logic only works when the unit is tag "allied".
ToT is definitively not more powerful than the mechanized barrage which could, when it was release, take down the shwerer, and now something between 60-70% of it.
That is simply false. The same commander had the unique ability "Withdraw and Refit" which was removed
Even if that was true it would be even more reason to nerf the WC51 since it makes the commander a one trick pony.
if that is problem have start with a gun.
It is not really difficult to understand. It makes the unit more balanced.
It is a nerf to the unit, cav R can still you the m3 and one would have even more reason to built the m3
Yes it does over perform, it even has a longer range. It also arrives sooner the infantry weapons
So is Kubel. If one can not protect one's WC51 one can still disembark and use the crew to cap and repair. Then one can still use mark target or barrage when one needs it.
WC51 is over-performing for cost and the commander ability simply provides too many things.
Do you compare Withdraw and Refit which was barely used with the most powerfull barrage USF had from a doctrine? I mean many commanders sold have been revamp but never the last and powerful ability have been simply removed, why do you think Mr.Smith had to tie it to the jeep in the first place after adding the sherman?
For the rest of your arguments, we could apply it to all early game call-in units. They come early and are game changer: they're here for that. Cavriflemen and sherman76 are okish units that don't really give anything if you can't make the WC51 giving you the early game advantage, that doesn't make the WC51 OP in any way, just make them over dependent on how you manage your early game (WC51 or not).
Originally the mechanized company had the arty barrage as a unic ability and Mr.smith couldn't remove it because the commander has been sold with the feature.
Would you agree to see the TA remove from its commander after buying it? nop, so same for the arty barrage. Fortunately or unfornately, the ability can't be removed from the doctrine unless you give in exchange something better.
About the WC51 raw performance, the unit is carrying the doctrine at the moment. You're only buying the Sherman 76 because you had a good start with the jeep, Cav Riflemen are only interesting because the WC51 is there to open the path.
Is it too cheap? Well it's difficult to make it more expensive than a Kubel since it lacks of combat capability before upgrade.
Remove the crew? Difficult to understand the reason why, we're not talking about the pershing which is unic or Calliope/Priest where the player could abuse it to spam them.
Disable its loading function once upgraded? that's not a nerf for it but for the Cav Riflemen
Reduce its raw dps performing stats? I don't see them overperforming, the .50 cost 45 munitions which delay CaptBAR or LtZook, that's a clear trade off.
The WC51 is still vulnerable to anything having a gun and usually disapear once a 222, a luch or HTAA hit the field. You most likely have to build a new one to use the barrage ability so adding a 200mp cost to the barrage.
It's precisely what makes a unit OP. Comparing units without context is completely pointless.
Would the 76mm be OP without the snowballing effect provided by the rest of the doctrine? As far as I experienced it the 76mm isn't even an I-win button vs the Pz4.
Mainly its doctrinal context. It's the perfect unit to continue the snowballing started by the jeep because it's easy to reach critical mass with it and it has insane RoF which makes it perfect for dives.
What you're describing is sealing the game before the oppoent can field appropriate counter, but it doesn't make the unit OP or such.
I think thedarkarmadillo nailed it about the Ez8, even if the unit is good stat wise, it brings nothing usefull to the faction. If we compare it to the T34-85, the later is actually very good vs infantry which is its primary function, to bleed your opponent and force him to build a panther.
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