I don't disagree with you on Conscripts, but comparing base rosters is not absolute since the game is meant to be played by picking one of three commanders, and Soviets were made by Relic to be heavily dependent on doctrinal units.
That was probably the intent, but it doesn't work like that in practice. SOV 1v1 meta builds revolve around core units, because many doctrinal ones either don't fit that mode very much (KV tanks, call-in heavies, shock troops, heavy mortar) or got stuck in otherwise unimpressive doctrines, for 1v1 at least, (T34/85, guards, Sherman). Well, guards and T34/85 see some play in 1v1 because of Guard Motor Coordination, but that's just one commander and even that one currently isn't exactly the most popular one. Baby AT guns and DSHK are now among the few popular SOV call in units in 1v1, but that has little to do with mainline infantry and medium tank composition. |
MR upgrade was not available at beta their vet bonuses where designed with out it thus they superior to that of the other units. Now that MR is available it only natural their bonuses get toned down.
I happened to have played during beta, so I know what I'm talking about. MR was added exactly because the baseline was not enough.
Conscripts do not fight "against double bren/bar vet3 tommies/rifles" and they preice range is not even close.
They do not, but they compare to them. And no, their price range is not far. Cons are expensive because of how often they drop models. It's not so easily noticeable ingame when other units are also fairly cheap to build, but the amount you spend on simply reinforcing them is much higher than with other mainlines. First salvo from volks commonly takes down a model right away for example. And while the upgrades are indeed more expensive, they provide correspondingly higher firepower. YOu can compare single bar/bren tommies/rifles if you wish, which is very close, but then they still remain superior in firepower and still remain signigicantly better in the early and mid game, so nothing changes.
No they do not. Soviet have access to a numerous other infatry and units and conscripts are supposed to everything.
No, soviets do not have acces to numerous other infantry options. You have CE which are only viable as a combat unit early game, you have Penals – not viable at all, and you have optionally one elite call-in. If you followed 1v1 meta or tournaments, you would probably know that those are not used very much except for a few specific guard builds. |
In late game, they are not meant to stand their ground versus other infantry.
Based on what? Since the beta they were designed around horrible starting stats but exceptional veterancy. Their efficient vet3 performance is designed to make up for their lack of damage output throughout the early and mid game, and the manpower bleed they cause with their received accuracy malus.
But even with current vet bonuses, cons are still not exceptionally strong in the late game, as 7m vet3 cons lose against double bren/bar vet3 tommies/rifles at pretty much every range and cover, and those units are actually dominant mainlines even in early and mid game. Cons outperform Volks at medium/long range in the late game when in cover, but they seriously struggle against them in the midgame and OKW has other stock infantry options that make short work of cons. Standard LMG grens can't defeat 7m vet3 cons even at long range when both are fighting in cover, and that I agree is a problem, but I believe there is a general consensus that the issue there is lackluster gren performance.
Cons need to be able to stand up to infantry in the late game, because SOV have otherwise trouble mantaining map presence. No durable mediums, no late game vehicle with AI killing power like Brummy/Sherman/P4, no stock elite infantry, ZIS barrage and Katy getting nerfed... SOV can't win engagements with mean looks alone, they need to have some firepower. Especially considering that they typically need to turn around VP disadvantage from mid game. |
The way I see it SVT Cons are supposed to be good and come out fast. After all, SVT Cons are better than StG Volks. It doesn't strike me as an upgrade designed for late game scaling, unlike 7-man.
Sure, no issues there, I was mentioning that just because I've seen SVT dps being cited as the reason for the nerf. |
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Reasonable changes, but the 10 % accuracy nerf should be reverted as well, conscripts weren't really dangerous even at 7m vet3, ppsh upgrade is still overpriced and outdated, and SVT cons don't scale so well compared to 7m cons. The nerf is misplaced. |
Shocks, ISU, KV2, T34/85, AT overwatch, IL2 AT strafe, etc.
Shocks especially are a bit too strong overall IMO.
The problem with Soviet doctrines is also how stacked they are. Why do the ISU doctrines have so much strong stuff in them like Shocks, Guards, Mark Target, Il2. Just too much for one single doctrine. Or Urban Defence with Forward HQ, Shocks, Mini-AT, KV2 and booby traps.
Yeah, if case of abilities in general it makes sense, but this debate originally stemmed from comments about SOV call-in infantry.
But in general I've had it the otehr way around, I've always disliked doctrines where you use only one or two abilities or if the abilities lack snyergy. But I guess some specific abilities could be decouples, like ISU + mark target and off-maps. That's probably mostly large team game issue, I don't play those much. |
then nerf the doctrinal shit and buff the core soviet army...
What "doctrinal shit"? I don't see anyone use Shocks much in 1v1 and Guards Airbourne see very little play as well, even despite their doctrine being popular. Standard Guards are the only doctrinal infantry that is being used right now, but even those are usually just a specific tech choice rather than key parts to any meta build. They are decent, but by no means overly powerful or anything. They don't melt infantry and perform well only at certain ranges.
The reason why people don't use elite Soviet infantry much is actually pretty simple – to avoid the same issues some other factions face in late game, which is lack of snares around the map and manpower bleed when explosive damage replaces small arms as a main source of casualties.
No, SOV call-ins don't need nerfs and core infantry also doesn't need buffs, except for Penals and perhaps T34/76 timing, of course. But what the faction certainly doesn't need is nerfs to the core army. |
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It doesn't matter what changed are made to Churchill unless Comet is nerfed into unplayable state or Churchill made OP. Comet is simply so much more potent and useful that even with the 10 fuel cost nerf it's still an infinitely better option. Churchill is slow, wastes pop cap, doesn't kill much, isn't really that much durable than a Comet. Comet already has large health pool, great frontal armour and additional survivability tools, it's quite difficult to actually lose one in 1v1. If you get stuck in some hopeless scenario with a snare, both Comet and Churchill die. If you play well, there is no reason to lose either, but Comet ditches out more damage. Why would anyone pick a Churchill again?
This is not to say Comet is OP. Its AI potential is worse than that of T34/76, which costs half the price, and in the AT department it's still inferior to a Panther. But the design of Hammer vs. Anvil is the problem. One gives a direct late game upgrade over your stock mediums, a role that needs to be filled and an improvement in that area is always welcome. But nobody needs a damage sponge. You don't win games by siting ducks and taking damage, you win games by outmaneuvering and pushing back your opponent. With a popcap of 100 and finite amount of resources, nobody can afford to waste pop and fuel on a unit that doesn't really contribute in that department. |
And you want cons to perform as an exceptionally good unit? I mean alright, does grenadiers perfom like an exceptionally good unit, when they face rifles\tommies? Does volks perfom like an exceptionally good unit when they face rifles\tommies?
They were exceptional in their cost efficiency, not perfromance. 7m cons on live aren't some scary damage dealers that melt Axis infantry, it's just that they are harder to wipe and can win some engagements when in cover. That's different from tommies/rifles who are expecptional in their combat performance. Now Cons are becoming more expeensive and less potent, which, after T70 nerfs, leaves Soviet with not a single unit that is great in some department. Every other faction has some units that everybody would like to have because of their excellent performance, usefulness or efficiency. Units like MG42/PAK/P4 for OST, rifles or jacksons for USF, sturmpios or P4 for OKW, tommies or Comets for UKF... Of course, the factions pay for that with other disadvantages – limited mainline infantry power for OST, overworked Sturmpios for OKW, no heavier armour for USF, low versatility for UKF. For SOV the two defining units are 7m cons and T70 and the disadvantages were overall poor combat performance of most units and lack of expensive late game units. Now both of those core units are being nerfed hard but disadvantages are not alleviated. That's the problem.
And on a side note. Considering MR doesnt requare both molys and AT nades, you can now get it even faster then before, because most of the time you will be skipping molotovs anyway.
Nobody ever payed for the upgrade at T3. It's expensive, there are other priorities like bringing in T4 and at T3 you don't even have enough muni to upgrade the squads anyway. Pay the fuel and MP jsut to ugprade one or two squads s incredibly inefficient at that timing.
And also cons litteraly just lost 10% acc on vet3, while now they will get +20% exp just by unlocking MR, meaning that Svt\PPsH or cons with picked up weapons will vet up faster and you are no longer locked into upgrading all cons with 7men in order to get benefits from MR.
The vet bonus being global doesn't matter. By the time you now get MR, every Cons squad instantly gets ugpraded anyway, you don't have any unupgraded untis running around, and most are about to hit vet 3 already, so there is little benefit. What matters about 7m upgrade is the increased damage output, which allows cons to directly engage Axis infantry, and the 7th model which makes the squads less likely to get wiped when biggest sources of damage become explosive. The 20% XP bonus is useful only for replacing lost squads. |
I mean at this point the balance team can just drop the smoke and mirrors and admit that they just want to remove the soviets from the game and it probably wouldnt surprise anyone...
Basically this. Vet 3 Cons were the only thing that performed really well in the late game for the faction and carried it on its back, making up for their poor performence in the first 15 minutes, but no, SOV can't have a unit that can actually feel good to use. Meanwhile other factions can keep their exceptionally good units like MG42, P4, Rifles or Tommies because it's "their identity". I guess I get it, SOV's identity is to suck, so it's just a consistency change, which is a popular phrase to throw around here. In 1v1 SOV used to make up for their poor early/mid game and lack of powerful armour with cost efficient infantry late game. With heavy nerf to both cost and performance of Vet 3 cons, what is left?
Just to put things into perspective, this is a list of non-commander units that were significantly nerfed in performance so far for SOV, the ever so dominant faction during the past year.
- Cons (significant nerf)
- Sniper
- Scout Car (the armour nerf does more harm than health increase does good against small arms)
- ZIS (significant nerf)
- M5 (significant nerf)
- T-70 (significant nerf)
- T-34 (only minor nerf in 1v1)
- SU-85
- Katyusha
For fairness' sake, this is a list of units that were buffed:
- Engineers (minimal impact)
- Medics (significant buff)
- SU-76 (mobility buff)
- Maxim
I won't lsit penals in either group, since their economy was changed, firepower nerfed and durability increased, so it'S hard to tell.
And this is a list of all non commander core units that SOV happen to use these days:
- Engineers
- Medics
- Cons
- ZIS
- T-70
- T-34
- SU-85
- Katyusha
Of the buffed units, only Medics will make major impact, as Engineers don't really fight in the late game where they manage to hit the vet, T-70 is still mandatory, which eliminates SU-76 as an option, Maxim still suck and penals still can't replace Cons in their role. So yeah, basically the entire roster was just nerfed like that, despite the faction struggling in tournaments, on 1v1 ladder and I won't even mention teamgames.
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