Which is still less fuel than t3+t4 now, by a lot, and a less than 2 su85's. That's what you give up right now by getting the hard counter to P4, you give up getting to ram anything that gets near the 85 (unless you pick one of two doctrines). You are supposed to have to make tradeoffs as Soviet, I am not arguing that you are interested in nerfing Germans.
I agree that fuel requirements would be a major point in balancing an idea like this. That said, I understand the design theory behind the soviets is to make tradeoffs, but I just do not believe it makes for compelling gameplay. The reason the germans are so popular and fun to play is because of their consistency and ability to bring the tactical concept of combined arms to the battlefield at every stage of the game. It's thoroughly satisfying and feels like how the game should be played. With that, soviets and their either/or tech system really fails to capture that element of play.
To me the soviets feel like a poor mix of coh1 PE and Brits. The either/or nature of the PE tech, and the lack of proper combined arms from Brits. It's just a bad place, and while soviets can do quite well in early and mid game, the lack of a full arsenal for combined tactics in the mid to late game is why they seem to come up short, and why they are so heavily reliant on their commander call-ins. These shortcomings could easily be fixed by moving the SU76 and T34 and adjusting tech costs.
Look at it this way, why build a T70 when you can save a little more and get a T34? Why build an SU76 when you can save a little more and get an SU85? The either/or nature not only limits their ability to react to an battle but it also directly lowers the value of units like the T70 and SU76 when their superior equivalent is available in the same building for only a little more fuel. Imagine if the germans had the P4 and Panther in T4; no one would build the P4 if they have they can afford to wait for a Panther, nor would they want to, because by the time you get T4 the match is reaching a stage where the P4 is less effective. This is similar to the stage at which the T70 and SU76 become available, there is only a very small window of time during which these unit can play a role on the battlefield, and you might as well just wait that time for a T34 or SU85. |
I really don't like this idea, it has been posted many times before. Giving Soviets T3 and T4 is too much. Also the synergy you talk about is just ram + lots of range/damage. That combo is extremely lethal, too lethal to given to any player who makes it to the late game.
If you want to do this Panther would need to have the same range as the SU85.
I don't agree that it would be too lethal of a combo. That is a lot of fuel required to get T4, a T34 and a SU85, then you have to risk the T34 to ram a single Panther. You seem to underestimate the Panther's capabilities, the thing is like a fucking Rolls Royce. It is fast, lethal vs inf and vehicles, pretty good unit AI, and has blitzkrieg. Now, please don't mistake my intentions here, I'm not a fan of "nerf Germans", I actually think they play fine, I simply see this T3/T4 change as a way to up the Soviet late game without needing to nerf what makes the Germans so enjoyable to play.
I wish I could make a mod to test this idea. I really believe it is something that could help the Soviets an wouldn't upset the balance too much. Anyone have the skills to do so? |
You can call them P2W...
...And if you complain about commander DLCs breaking the balance temporarily, then you should go batshit crazy over the new factions being added
Jesus dude calm down, and stop trying to put words in my mouth. Try taking a breath and actually stating your opinion without hostility. I never said they are pay 2 win, I merely mentioned the fact that a super majority of people who bought the game and quit believe they are pay2win, along with a good number of people who WOULD buy the game list the dlc commanders as a reason they wont buy the game.
I do not want dlc commanders because they don't bring enough to the table, scare off players and potential players due to pay2win concerns/fears (real or not), and frequently are unbalanced for weeks when they first arrive until patched (which only adds to the p2w fears). |
We would have had it and many more already, but certain gaming community slushed the idea with their tears and refusal to adaptation to new units.
You really want more DLC commanders? Pay2Win commanders is the single most complained about thing in this game by newbies and potential buyers. Whether it is true or not that they are P2W, the DLC commanders have greatly hurt the game's reputation and have continually upset balance with each release (even if they are balanced later on). |
Pqiumseh said that the intention was for Soviets to have to choose... which I think is sort of irrelevant to your suggestion of low tier units in one area and high tier units in another... Considering how Soviet units are generally inferior to German ones it has to be one of the worst balancing ideas in a long time.
I like it however, I'd love to be able to use some lighter units backed by an IS or ISU for one, rather than be forced to go down the predictable boring SU-85 spam route. I find the idea of roleplaying a light assault gun unit supporting an infantry assault really exciting.
It really is a silly idea, especially when months of play have proven that the either/or nature of T3 and T4 really gimp the faction. CoH is about combined arms tactics, but in the mid to late game Reric wants soviets to suddenly ignore all that and go pure defense or pure offense...
Another suggestion that deserves a look is to put the SU75 in T3 and the T34 into T4. Greatly reduce the fuel costs for T3 and increase the fuel cost for T4. Then soviets actually have a mid game and late game, both of which provide adaptable combined arms tactics at all stages of the game. It's the best and easiest fix imo and also provides more interesting gameplay for a faction that is currently stuck somewhere between PE and Brits of CoH1. |
The Soviets are like if PE and US crashed into each other. They're highly mobile with little static defense, but while they have MG's and Tanks, they're not as solid as Ostheer's.
Half my problems with Soviet are that the faction design is severely flawed, imo. They have no vehicular mid-game, so they must hold off with AT Grenades and ZiS guns until they can get Tanks.
And thanks to their faction design, you simply can not give them said vehicles, because their buildings are literally separated by early-game and late-game, there is no middle tier to which you could add a BA-64 or something.
There is a recurring suggested fix for the Soviets that would greatly help with their mid game problems. It is to swap the SU76 to T3 and the T34 to T4, greatly reduce the fuel costs for T3 and increase the fuel costs of T4 (might also need a slight increase to T1 and T2 to slow down T3, without overpricing T4 tho). This way, T3 comes a little earlier, Soviets have a halftrack to reinforce from a little sooner, the T70 and SU75 come earlier to deal with the light and medium vehicles of the germans, and give them some breakthrough capabilities vs turtling germans a little earlier as well. While the T4 then has a synergy between the T34 and SU85. It's the perfect fix, which after some balancing, will provide the soviets with a healthy mid to late game and also improve their combined arms tactics.
EDIT: such a change would also allow for better call-in oriented tactics, like stalling at T3 for your call in tanks; or for a more infantry oriented commander, skip T3 and stall for T4 vehicles. The key here is that both T3 and T4 would provide a mix of units which compliment one another at different stages of the game, instead of the current all "offense" of T3 or all "defense" of T4.
Here is a Reddit thread detailing the suggested changes:
http://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/21jmvg/so_regardless_of_the_early_game_which_has_reach_a/ |
Imo blitzkrieg should be removed from German armour and instead give T-34's a Sprint / Boost ability, since for them to have any hope of doing damage they need to flank.
I'd be in favor of this IF they also removed the stupid fecking ram ability. I just hate ram... the T34 is balanced around having this ability and it suffers overall for it. Why not simply make it a good tank by removing the ram ability? |
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Would it hurt the Germans if Reric removed the MG upgrade, and ability to garrison the medic and command post; effectively limiting the ability to garrison bunkers to the mg upgrade (ie: base mgs nests)? Perhaps then, swap the commander specific trench for the mg upgrade, giving Germans the trench as a core ability and limiting the garrison-able mg nest upgrade to a commander ability.
I don't think the MG nest is as bad as people say it is, but I also do not find it terribly important to the faction's balance and am happy to suggest removing it/changing it's availability a little. They are a pain, especially on 3vs3 and 4vs4. |
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This is actually a fantastic balance suggestion. If priced correctly, it might even allow for a soviet player to field T-70s, halftracks, and su76's at the same time without too much fuel investment.
The thing about soviets are their lack of tech versatility and combined arms. I do not think the soviets are terribly under balanced, it is more that their tech is stuck somewhere between coh1 pe and coh1 brits. Obviously, it's unlikely Reric will implement this idea, but it really could go a long way toward fixing the soviet tech problems. Now, they can't even get ACCESS to a damn halftrack without 140 fuel.
I appreciate the attempt to balance/change the pacing and skill cap, but these changes only pigeonhole the soviets even harder into the either-or tech problem of T3/T4.
EDIT: why they didnt simply steal ideas directly from the Eastern Front mod for coh1 I'll never know. |
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