Regarding First Strike Bonuses

First strike bonuses have recently come into the spotlight due to the Fallschirmjaeger buffs. Several units have them, including JLI, commandos, and Ostheer units with the ambush camouflage upgrade. The bonus typically incorporates an accuracy buff when a unit fires out of camo.

However, due to the way the camouflage works on units like falls, JLI and commandos, it does not only apply when units are actually waiting in ambush and ambushing enemy squads. Rather, the access to advanced movement camouflage coupled with large amounts of yellow cover in the lategame allows "ambush" squads to retain their bonuses when attack moving or just moving around the battlefield, as they are perpetually in camouflage. In effect, this makes units with access to these abilities 25-50% better than similarly priced units for no negligible increase in player skill. This is especially problematic with units like bren commandos and Fallschrimjaeger, due to their high DPS at longer ranges regardless of first strike buffs.

I would like to see the ambush camouflage for units like this require units to actually be waiting in a position for a few moments before the ambush bonus can be applied. The time can be anywhere from 2-5 seconds. This will make ambush units feel more like they are ambushing, and less gimmicky. It will also add an additional level of skill to get the most out of these units. What are everyone's thoughts on a change like this?

I would like to see the ambush camouflage for units like this require units to actually be waiting in a position for a few moments before the ambush bonus can be applied. The time can be anywhere from 2-5 seconds

i agree with you. just like they added a delay to spotting scopes

I believe the units who can A. Move in camo and B. get bonus accuracy are as follows (other units do not get acc bonuses or cannot move in camo)

1. JLI
Bonus: Now has First-Strike Bonuses; increases accuracy by 50% for 5 seconds.)
2. Falls with vet 3+ (they can't move in camo before that point)
Bonus: Now has a First-Strike Ambush bonus of +25% when attacking from camouflage. Veterancy 5 now provides a +20% boost to their First-Strike Ambush modifier.
3. Partisans vet 2+
Bonus:+50% first-strike accuracy modifier at veterancy 2 when attacking from stealth.


Other units of note:
Commandos-get move speed
Stormtroopers- no ambush bonus but tactical assault ability can be used at any time
Grens, Pgrens, HMG- 5 second accuracy boost, cannot move in cover
Pathfinders-Cannot move in cover til vet, no bonus

I think since you are really talking about 3 units here any changes should be focused on those in particular. SInce you cannot camo in combat, camo is in a relatively good place right now compared to units disappearing on retreat and the like in previous versions

I think just adding a timer such as must be in cover for ~2 seconds regardless of movement is the best solution if this is deemed a big enough problem. If you want to squad wipe it takes good micro to control your units to fire at the right time, if the are discovered first they lose the bonus

Commando's can do this too right?

I think the best solution is to require Green cover camouflage for the bonus to come into effect.

I think the best solution is to require Green cover camouflage for the bonus to come into effect.

This might be too much of a nerf. I'd rather see them implement a movement timer for the ambush bonus and slow movement under cloak before requiring green cover. I don't like sniper play much so when facing a sniper, it is nice to be able to cloak a JLI, Falls, or even Gren in yellow cover.

Just out of curiosity, is any unit besides Falls causing a problem with first strike bonuses? It seems like Storm doctrine camo has been around forever with no complaints, same with commandos, and I don't remember any buffs to them recently.

Commando's can do this too right?

They should be, difference is, commando do not have massive DPS at long range too(stop the dual bren meme, it was never used once outside of vacuum tests)

Imo units with camo should have their HE grenades replaces by DOT grenades.

Imo units with camo should have their HE grenades replaces by DOT grenades.

What happens to grens and pgrens if you upgrade them with camo then?

What happens to grens and pgrens if you upgrade them with camo then?

I would have no issue for PGs to get a DOT grenade, I doubt it would be necessary for grens since rifle grenade has a long minimum range.

I would have no issue for PGs to get a DOT grenade, I doubt it would be necessary for grens since rifle grenade has a long minimum range.

That just means they can ambush from further away.

That just means they can ambush from further away.

And have little chance of getting a squad wipe...
From all the units with access to camo LMG grenadiers is one of the worse n getting squad wipes and rifle grenades do not have good synergy with camo.

And have little chance of getting a squad wipe...
From all the units with access to camo LMG grenadiers is one of the worse n getting squad wipes and rifle grenades do not have good synergy with camo.

Camo LMG grens almost as good as JLI at killing snipers and better than PG's unless the sniper is being careless. They're probably not going to wipe squads like a PG but still worth camo cost.

Camo LMG grens almost as good as JLI at killing snipers and better than PG's unless the sniper is being careless. They're probably not going to wipe squads like a PG but still worth camo cost.

Pls read the whole debate before taking part it in. I have simply suggested that all camo units have their HE grenades replaced by DOT grenades.

I also responded that in the case of Grenadiers and rifle-grenade that might not be necessary.

And have little chance of getting a squad wipe...
From all the units with access to camo LMG grenadiers is one of the worse n getting squad wipes and rifle grenades do not have good synergy with camo.

Riflenades are amazing out of camo if you set it up properly. They have like a (I shit you not) .3-.5 second warning for the squad being shot at since the nade doesn't reveal the gren squad until it's in the air and the callout usually comes about then too (if at all).

Riflenades are amazing out of camo if you set it up properly. They have like a (I shit you not) .3-.5 second warning for the squad being shot at since the nade doesn't reveal the gren squad until it's in the air and the callout usually comes about then too (if at all).

Again read the context, HE grenades like bundle grenade and light gammon are far more deadly and can easily get a squad wipe. In order to get easily wipe ones want to allow the enemy squad to get close and the rifle-grenade has a minimum range and lmg grenadiers are not really effective at close range.

Start with them and turn them to DOT and if rifle-grenade proves to lead to too many wipe change it to DOT also....

That just means they can ambush from further away.

Are you fucking crazy Rifle nades suck, especially when compared to DOT grenades!