Grens UP & G43s suck

I returned to this game after the recent patch playing my favourite faction, the ostheer. I quickly noticed a pattern: It's as if USF got really popular these days. I could not help but to notice that I'd become really rusty in my time of not playing this game as I lost early engagements left and right, whereas I usually had thought of myself having a solid early game. After having a glance at coh2.org i was relieved when it dawned on me that the usf really had gotten a buff of sorts in form of rework and indeed I was not a bad player but a victim of usf op.

Jokes aside I understand why this was done (OKW), but I feel that the actions they have taken to balance out OKW vs USF has had a powercreep effect on other factions such as Ostheer. My issue here is not that "RM OP!" my issue is that grens are now underperforming in the early engagements and even more rely on MG42s support to the point where getting your mg flanked once leads to losing your early map control as your 3 grens just can't fight out whats left of those 3 RM causing a snowball effect.Fixing this issue buffing grens performance would hardly seem fair as the late game lmg grens vs bar rifles still is as it should be in my opinion.

These points in mind I suggest that in order to balance out the early game they should decrease the construction time of grenadier. This would not affect the late or mid game balance and would in my mind balance out the sticky early game. Another more drastic suggestion would be a small buff to the far range of k98s dps mirroring the small short range buff that RM got. This would emphasize the specialization of the grens as long range unit in comparison to RM.

ANOTHER thing that really grinds my gears are the G43s. At 2CPs these are super marginal in their usefulness when you take into account that they are in 3 commanders total. These 45 muni upgrades arrive too late to effect the early game and when they arrive they lose their window of opportunity very quickly. If you want to have more flexible all rounder infantry as ostheer you go for the 5 men grens as they are superior in almost every scenario. As far as my understanding is the g43 grens are supposed to promote you engaging the enemy on the move as the g43s don't drop almost any damage as you move and close in the distance. What exactly are you supposed to enclose and engage with these at 2cp timing that leads into an worthy engagement that you could not have taken from afar with mg42s? G43s turn your long range glass cannons into short range glass blowpipes.

My suggestions regarding the G43s are:
-Make them 1CP or tied to battle phase 1 at 0CP
-extend the buffs that panzergrenadier g43s received to also include grens

I honestly pick g43 over mg 42 any day. I think reduced cp could be nice, but then again id think at that point you'd have to make cons ppsh 1cp aswell.

I honestly pick g43 over mg 42 any day. I think reduced cp could be nice, but then again id think at that point you'd have to make cons ppsh 1cp aswell.

We have to take into account that ppsh cons in their current state are able to bully g43 grens to submission so I would not give them the equal timing but I think a lot of folks would welcome 2cp ppsh.

Im resilient to buff grens anymore. If G43 are not enough, there is something else you should do then.

If G43 are not enough, there is something else you should do then.

Yes you are correct that if something is worse compared to alternatives one should not use it. But my point was what if g43s were enough for at least some situations rather than being a meme.

I find G43 Grens pretty good to be honest.

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that if you buff Grens UKF and Soviets get fucked over too and that wouldn't be a good idea at the moment.

Just go for the LMG upgrade for your grenadiers.
USF and soviet infantry will beat your grenadiers at short range and mid-range anyway.

USF and soviet infantry will beat your grenadiers at short range and mid-range anyway.

I'm okay with losing to a 280mp unit with 120 muni worth of upgrades with my 240mp 45 muni guys. The issue I'm having with g43s is that they come way too late giving too small of a powerspike to ever be better alternative than non doctrinal LMG due to opportunity costs. If the LMG is always the right choice then something must be done to the g43s or they should not exist.

Grens are pretty balanced vs conscripts and support weapons (except the maxim which needs help)... though rifles and penals make them seem weak in contrast... wouldnt it be wiser to nerf the latter rather than to buff the former?

I find G43 Grens pretty good to be honest.

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that if you buff Grens UKF and Soviets get fucked over too and that wouldn't be a good idea at the moment.

They are pretty solid with the exception against USF. I feel like g43s are pretty decent against both Sov and UKF. Grens still trade pretty poorly with rifles with g43s at mid-close so mind as well go mg42 and have better dps at long range.

G43 are not bad but imo it would better design if 5 men and g43 where merged in one ability.

So now g43 upgrade provides 4+1 g43 that are designed like carand (or SVT.)

And so, the crusade to turn grens into rifles, but cheaper and still with all the powerful support units continues.

New flash:
5 men grenadier are already here.
And they are not cheaper than riflemen since the cost 270/60 MU and need to have T1 built.
And they come later than riflemen who can buy BARs on top of their Garand.

The difference is instead of getting complicated bonuses like:
1) 1*G43
2) *0.85 CD
3) Free healing
4) *0.90 RA

they would get 5 weapons of the same type and behave like other infatry.

I think Grens are probably fine against Soviets and UKF at the moment but have issues against USF until you are able to get them to Vet 3 and upgraded. I think the problem is more with Riflemen being really good at everything right now and with Double Bars being extremely strong when attack moved especially in a blob. Although it might also be the combo of Rifles being better plus getting an officer followed up by an extremely fast light vehicle that might be more problematic especially for OKW. Officers should probably be made more expensive, maybe make the tech the same cost as the squad, so 280 mp and 35 fuel but reduce the cost of the side-tech upgrade from 50 mp and 20 fuel to maybe just 20 fuel or so. This delays the officer slightly but would allow you to still push out light vehicles quickly if you have good fuel control with your 3 Rifle squads.

5 man grens are extremely powerful especially with the new DR buff... your proposal will break the game...


And newsflash 5 man grens come earlier than 7 man cons despite having relatively more firepower (the g43 crit)


Somehow i feel vipper is trying to make ost a faction with no downsides at all...

Gren's with 43's can be good, but it's a tough call. G43 blobs may be strong, but .50 cal, vickeers, numerous light vehicles ect. often stymie the impact of grens in the midgame. The Lmg is a good deal better late game when you can choose to engage from long range more easily.

I think you could take this in the direction of Pgrens and make the upgrade a little better but cost more. It's a little risky b/c of how infantry changes can go wild, but G43 grens seem like a rather marginal ability currently due to how many other infantry units such as tommies, rifles, and even cons have more expensive and ultimately better upgrade paths available. It's not a bad ability but it's nothing special right now. Pgrens on the other hand...

I think you could take this in the direction of Pgrens and make the upgrade a little better but cost more. It's a little risky b/c of how infantry changes can go wild, but G43 grens seem like a rather marginal ability currently due to how many other infantry units such as tommies, rifles, and even cons have more expensive and ultimately better upgrade paths available. It's not a bad ability but it's nothing special right now. Pgrens on the other hand...

I think you neatly summarized my point here about g43s in their current state being a lackluster upgrade with very marginal role despite being included in 3 (three) commanders meaning someone at somepoint thought g43s are really useful

Upping the muni cost to 60 and adjusting the performance accordingly would seem like the easiest solution. The less riskier way would be to keep g43s performance at the current state and match the SVT cons/ ppsh penals timing by reducing the CP cost.

Im resilient to buff grens anymore. If G43 are not enough, there is something else you should do then.

I agree here, I always thought of Grenadiers, and their upgrades, as the gold standard of infantry, from which other infantry should be balanced. If USF needs buffs to deal with Volksgrenadiers, then maybe Volksgrenadiers are overperforming.

I think Grens are fine as they are. G43´s dont feel very good on most maps because the lmg42 feels way better even tho it cant fire while moving. Still there is plenty of infantrie in this game which makes Grens Inferior in any way you could possibly use them (such as Riflemen and SVTCons)

Yes you are correct that if something is worse compared to alternatives one should not use it. But my point was what if g43s were enough for at least some situations rather than being a meme.

you just got it wrong.
G43s are not for grenblobbing and A-attack. First they are doctrinal, if that doesnt tell you anything, then just dont use them. Second, where are your teamweapons, 222's or heavy cover?

CoH2 is a very, very strategical game, even massing troops can be a mistake if you dont plan ahead what to do with them.

G43 are great, just change the way of using them was my point