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Are AXIS Unbalanced? Debate

30 Sep 2019, 00:05 AM
#21
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Thanks for the info, i appreciate it.

And do you not see it? Players spamming Engineers? They will have like, 4 on the field, they wreck havoc
math time

removing the starting eng 300 mp x 4 = 1200 mp , 240 x 4 = 960, so u can get another cons for 240 x 5 =1200 mp outnumbering ur oppoenet
30 Sep 2019, 00:17 AM
#22
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Replays and stating which game mode you play can give a better perspective about what your issues are.

Unless you check every single time the rank of your opponents after a match, it's hard to gauge if the match was balanced "skillwise". CELO is a nice tool to have if you want to know your opponents.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/84257/useful-interesting-threads-2-0

30 Sep 2019, 01:09 AM
#23
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1



I always did penals, but how can you cope with less map presence and high replenishment costs?

Would 3 penals, and 2 cons work well?

ANd with the penals shall i make the AT or keep them on fighting infantry and call in guards?


Go 2 Engis for capping power and then go Penals and scoutcar. I typically go 3 Penals and mix a scout car in there somewhere. Volks dont get fausts so the Scout Car is super effective at forcing retreats.

3 Penals 2 cons is too much bleed. Maybe 1 con at most if you want utility.

The thing about Sov OKW matchup is that cons typically want a large presence of infantry to either spread the enemy thing due to map pressure or overwhelm an area with multiple squads. Cons do not trade favorable with any mainline early except maybe Grens. Problem is OKW can field around a similar amount of Volks as you do cons so you dont get early map pressure and dont trade well into him.

Penals on the other hand typically beat Volks pretty easily. Focus on a part of the map early to hold and use ur scout car to force strums and volks of ur penals.

At penals depend on how the game is going. If you can get guards out and not need the extra at then keep them unupgraded. If your expecting a fast LV then tech 1 penal for AT.
30 Sep 2019, 05:00 AM
#24
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Axis isnt OP if SOV decides to go T1 and abuse penals....

But the maxim is a different story and is in need of a PROPER buff.... the issue here is a combination of a l2p issue and newbies playing with the underpowered aspect of the soviets (T2 core)... as said before... abuse crutch units and sov will have no problems
30 Sep 2019, 05:13 AM
#25
avatar of Comrade-Jayray

Posts: 39

Replays and stating which game mode you play can give a better perspective about what your issues are.

Unless you check every single time the rank of your opponents after a match, it's hard to gauge if the match was balanced "skillwise". CELO is a nice tool to have if you want to know your opponents.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/84257/useful-interesting-threads-2-0



Cheers dude i['ll start posting some replays and i will take your advice, thanks!
30 Sep 2019, 05:14 AM
#26
avatar of Comrade-Jayray

Posts: 39

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 05:00 AMgbem
Axis isnt OP if SOV decides to go T1 and abuse penals....

But the maxim is a different story and is in need of a PROPER buff.... the issue here is a combination of a l2p issue and newbies playing with the underpowered aspect of the soviets (T2 core)... as said before... abuse crutch units and sov will have no problems


Cheers for advice and insight
1 Oct 2019, 07:19 AM
#27
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1



Thanks for the info, i appreciate it.

And do you not see it? Players spamming Engineers? They will have like, 4 on the field, they wreck havoc


Tbh that is one of the worst possible builds I can think of. Even getting a 2nd sturmpio is relatively uncommon and off-meta.

Are you playing 4 v 4? Maybe it's possible in such game modes to spam sturmpioneers and be the designated team "repair guy", I dunno.
1 Oct 2019, 11:55 AM
#28
avatar of Comrade-Jayray

Posts: 39



Tbh that is one of the worst possible builds I can think of. Even getting a 2nd sturmpio is relatively uncommon and off-meta.

Are you playing 4 v 4? Maybe it's possible in such game modes to spam sturmpioneers and be the designated team "repair guy", I dunno.


I do play quite a few 4v4 and 3v3.

My 4v4 rank is a lot higher compared to the others so i guess so
1 Oct 2019, 14:17 PM
#29
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

As someone who plays mostly 3v3/4v4 I think that every faction has aspects which are unbalanced in a vacuum. Sometimes they are outright OP such the JLI issue a few months back.

On the whole though I think balance is in a good state, especially compared to how it has been in the past.

The main issues at the moment are the maxim is still in a weird place and not worth buying most of the time. You're better of stealing MG42s.

Light vehicles and (non premium) Mediums have a limited window of use in larger games as everyone tends to rush for panthers and the TDs to counter them.

Non doctrinal rocket artillery is vital in team games where blobbing is rampant. The USF and UKF can suffer heavily if they pick the wrong doctrine.

Conscripts seem to be more convoluted than ever with arguable results.

I'd say now that the main balance issues stem from the maps rather than the factions, as some maps lend themselves heavily to forward retreat points. Other maps are simply too small for 4v4.

1 Oct 2019, 17:43 PM
#30
avatar of Grining Cat

Posts: 98

Just join the German forces, we have better tanks and cookies :) No need to play to allies :)

Well...some more serious advice now..

-shock troops are terminators
-good sniper play makes ostheer players cry
-t70 is a little gozilla
-t85 tank is good at hunting down bunnies
-forget about the Geneva convention and start to lay MINES!
-If you do regular sacrifices to the RNG-Gods, try B4s :)

Good luck with the Ivans and Vladimirs

1 Oct 2019, 18:07 PM
#31
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

I would start off by playing okw and comeback to Soviets once you acquire more skill. You have to learn to use doctrines and strategies that can deal with elephants as soviets. Once you learn to counter the big cats, Soviets are just as strong as axis.

Don't play Brits this patch.
Usf is hard to play at higher lvls. Many players drop usf when they get to a higher lvl(not including 1's)
1 Oct 2019, 19:32 PM
#32
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


-If you do regular sacrifices to the RNG-Gods, try B4s :)

1 Oct 2019, 19:55 PM
#33
avatar of Grining Cat

Posts: 98





Wonderful Distrofio! That picture summarizes everything you need to know about the soviet doctrine "Counterattack Tactics"! Loool :)
1 Oct 2019, 20:28 PM
#34
avatar of Comrade-Jayray

Posts: 39

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2019, 14:17 PMGrim
As someone who plays mostly 3v3/4v4 I think that every faction has aspects which are unbalanced in a vacuum. Sometimes they are outright OP such the JLI issue a few months back.

On the whole though I think balance is in a good state, especially compared to how it has been in the past.

The main issues at the moment are the maxim is still in a weird place and not worth buying most of the time. You're better of stealing MG42s.

Light vehicles and (non premium) Mediums have a limited window of use in larger games as everyone tends to rush for panthers and the TDs to counter them.

Non doctrinal rocket artillery is vital in team games where blobbing is rampant. The USF and UKF can suffer heavily if they pick the wrong doctrine.

Conscripts seem to be more convoluted than ever with arguable results.

I'd say now that the main balance issues stem from the maps rather than the factions, as some maps lend themselves heavily to forward retreat points. Other maps are simply too small for 4v4.



Yeah you make some good points
1 Oct 2019, 20:29 PM
#35
avatar of Comrade-Jayray

Posts: 39

Just join the German forces, we have better tanks and cookies :) No need to play to allies :)

Well...some more serious advice now..

-shock troops are terminators
-good sniper play makes ostheer players cry
-t70 is a little gozilla
-t85 tank is good at hunting down bunnies
-forget about the Geneva convention and start to lay MINES!
-If you do regular sacrifices to the RNG-Gods, try B4s :)

Good luck with the Ivans and Vladimirs



Haha i appreciate your advice, thank you
1 Oct 2019, 20:43 PM
#36
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 301

Against okw, you should try the following build if you want to play cons:

Conscript>Combat Engineer>Conscript>Conscript

Ever since the combat engineer buff, you can count them in the early game as a 4 man conscript squad in terms of combat prowless(even better, they have a normal recieve accuracy instead of the negative conscript have)

The mindset of this builds its all about allocating resources.

OKW has an important gap between their 1st and 2nd volksgrenadier, while you can crank this soviet build order almost non stop. This is important because we can seek out engagements and quite posibly win them by resource allocation.

The first conscript should go on the same side your first engineer unit goes. You want them to find a key point to build barricades while their fellow engis cap the surrounding points, always ready to come in the help of the conscripts.

The second combat engineer goes for the other side of the map, with caution. They are proving the area for axis units and should not engage offesively until the second conscript squad its close enough to help (this will make the enemy commit their units into an engagement you can tip in your favor)

The third and final conscript squad should come in the aid of the side in need. At this point an engeener must go back to the base and build T2. When pressured, okw players commit all their units to the same side and by this point he already has the 3 standard volks and teching up grenades, which counters the key element that tips conscripts over volks, the cover.

That's all, you can go from there. Just remember. Conscript play is all about trading with the enemy. If you can't win an engagement just retreat instead of wasting manpower

Remember the numbers:
Conscript: 20mp
Combat Engineers: 21mp

Volks: 25mp
Sturms: 30 mp

Better manpower conservation, the more it can be spent on support weapons or elite units
1 Oct 2019, 20:49 PM
#37
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Against okw, you should try the following build if you want to play cons:

Conscript>Combat Engineer>Conscript>Conscript

Ever since the combat engineer buff, you can count them in the early game as a 4 man conscript squad in terms of combat prowless(even better, they have a normal recieve accuracy instead of the negative conscript have)

The mindset of this builds its all about allocating resources.

OKW has an important gap between their 1st and 2nd volksgrenadier, while you can crank this soviet build order almost non stop. This is important because we can seek out engagements and quite posibly win them by resource allocation.

The first conscript should go on the same side your first engineer unit goes. You want them to find a key point to build barricades while their fellow engis cap the surrounding points, always ready to come in the help of the conscripts.

The second combat engineer goes for the other side of the map, with caution. They are proving the area for axis units and should not engage offesively until the second conscript squad its close enough to help (this will make the enemy commit their units into an engagement you can tip in your favor)

The third and final conscript squad should come in the aid of the side in need. At this point an engeener must go back to the base and build T2. When pressured, okw players commit all their units to the same side and by this point he already has the 3 standard volks and teching up grenades, which counters the key element that tips conscripts over volks, the cover.

That's all, you can go from there. Just remember. Conscript play is all about trading with the enemy. If you can't win an engagement just retreat instead of wasting manpower

Remember the numbers:
Conscript: 20mp
Combat Engineers: 21mp

Volks: 25mp
Sturms: 30 mp

Better manpower conservation, the more it can be spent on support weapons or elite units


I’ve only had success vs OKW using the cons -> maxim -> cons -> maxims -> cons build with shocks coming afterwards. I don’t recommend pure cons openings vs okw.
1 Oct 2019, 21:25 PM
#38
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2



I always did penals, but how can you cope with less map presence and high replenishment costs?

Would 3 penals, and 2 cons work well?

ANd with the penals shall i make the AT or keep them on fighting infantry and call in guards?

For SOV I would recommend not going more than 3 Penals for most games since they trade okayish at best in the mid to late game.
The early builds that work for me are (I'm not high ranked though)
- 3 Penals, 1-2 engineers and wait for 1 elite infantry (Guards, Shocks)
- 2 Penals, 1-2 engineers and sniper. Depending on commander choice later elite infantry or another Penal.
- 2 Penals, 2 engineers stall into usually 2 elite infantry (requires some skill to pull off and survive)

Usually one of the Penals is usually upgraded with PTRS when light vehicles arrive unless you get Guards. Mines will other wholes in your anti vehicle defense.

Non Penal builds are often 4xConscripts plus 1-2 support weapon and 1 elite infantry. If you only build 3 Cons you can usually afford one elite infantry more or safely get a second support weapon.

Rule of thumb for all modes: Get ~6 mobile units that are able to cap stuff. Get a second engineer in the late game for repairs.

You see that SOV often relies on their doctrinal infantry. Games without them are possible, but then you have to put pressure on the enemy infantry in some other way, often by artillery. The doctrinal infantry is what allows you to push the Axis players and make them move because they out-compete most Axis infantry at their respective optimum range.

After that SOV often rushes into their T70 which is excellent for the price and timing. If you're on the backfoot, waiting for a SU85 is often the best thing to do in team games.
Kajushas are also great, but I would get 2 other tanks first, usually a T34 and an SU85.


Note that all of these are rule of thumb and some games obviously require you to deviate from that.
2 Oct 2019, 02:36 AM
#39
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 888

The MG42 I think is overall the most OP unit in the game. It should be 350 MP the way that it is but because it's not it's spammable cancer and has been for years.
Vaz
2 Oct 2019, 09:10 AM
#40
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158



I do play quite a few 4v4 and 3v3.

My 4v4 rank is a lot higher compared to the others so i guess so



This is common in this game. People do things backwards. You see as the number of players goes down, you lose more. In other words, the more you have to rely on yourself instead of others to win, the greater the chance you will lose.

If you want to get better, spend some time playing 1v1, try to get yourself to level 9 or 10 at the minimum, then move up to 2v2 and do the same. Repeat until you are back at 4v4. You will find that now you will be a greater asset to your team, instead of the liability you are currently.

Also, lay mines. Axis has a lot of $$$ in those tanks, shame if one of them were to break down during an attack.
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