50 cal - Why is it so good?

I'd take Penals over Riflemen in a heartbeat.

before the patch? penals... after the patch? rifles without a doubt...

See, the difference between old and current design is, you don't automatically lose the game, regardless of skill level or game mode if you can't field guards.

That’s true, but you’re still mostly picking shocks or IS2 or both.

That’s true, but you’re still mostly picking shocks or IS2 or both.

But you are PICKING it. You CAN play other commanders whereas the old Soviet design you were playing against yourself if you picked an off meta commander.

But that's irrelevant, let's keep to the topic, sorry for dragging us off

Lieutenant and Captain need to be reworked into specialist squads that are NOT free, NOT mandatory with tech and NOT just fancy Riflemen.

I’d redo the USF tech structure to be more like Ostheer. You are forced to tech linearly from platoon to company to battalion command post. Officers are still available from each level of tech but you don’t get them for free and they are distinctly different from Riflemen.

Lieutenant- 5 man squad with 3 M1 Garands on Riflemen models, 1 Paratrooper M1 Carbine on the Lieutenant model and 1 M1C sniper rifle on a Pathfinder model. This squad is an anti sniper team/long range combat team that can help USF in long ranged fights that it normally struggles with. Ability is a sniper shot that kills one model instantly and is intended for countering a sniper if you get a flank off. Good in long ranged fights but can only pick up one weapon. This makes him situational as an anti sniper or long range unit, but is weaker than a rifleman squad at generalist duties.

Captain- 5 man squad with 4 Rear Echelon models with RE M1 Carbines and the Captain who has a Paratrooper M1 Carbine. Can upgrade to have double Bazookas or double M1919A6 LMGs making him a good support squad with his good upgrades, but is weak when not upgraded. These weapon upgrades reflect what actual weapons were held at the company level and would’ve been issued out at the direction of the company commander (a Captain).

Major- no rework needed to his abilities or armament, just increase squad size to 4 men and don’t give him for free with tech. 4 men is a slight buff to the squad, but since you have to buy him separately and not get if for free then a small buff seems reasonable.

End result? USF officers are all more specialized in their roles and are more appropriately armed per historical tables of organization and equipment. They are no longer mandatory, but are no longer free. This gives USF players more freedom to get team weapons without being forced to get a squad they don’t want or need, but is also means that playing against USF you don’t have an enemy that gets free squads just for teching up.

Best idea I’ve heard on usf. Wish the balance team took this seriously.

Non linear tech. So I assume the first tier (LT?) grants the weapon teams (50, m1 57mm, and the pack howie). What timing do you put it at/ how much does the tech cost? Generally I would think 35 fuel like current officers. The next tier (CPT) grants the vehicles (stuart, AA HT, m20). What cost do you give this tech tier? I would assume 20 fuel to preserve current vehicle timings. USF would then be able to tech to major like current, I assume.

Where does that leave us? 55 fuel in tech, and USF gets access to every single unit. Id imagine this becomes insanely broken (even with the fact that you dont get free officers now) and you have to nerf any of these units that currently perform well. This would probably include the .50, m1 57mm, the m20, the stuart, and maybe the pack howie.

Also, since you'll always have access to AT, zooks become much less important.

With near 24/7 access to weapon teams, airborne dies as a doctrine and recon suffers, especially considering the next point.

With the captain bringing double LMG potential, infantry and airborne become less attractive.

You nerf + change many weapon teams to be closer to the weapon teams of other factions, make the tech structure more similar to other factions, hurt a bunch of doctrines (I guess you could rework said doctrines too - I'm not confident that would work out well though), hurt weapon racks (one of the defining elements of USF).

Followup since my previous post is long.

Also to note that since officers aren't forced on the player, that does open up more room for elite infantry, so the impact on doctrines could balance out. I just don't think you would ever really end up calling in lmg paras or get 1919s on rifles when the captain can bring that much firepower though.

Also also, with USF having much less field presence due to not getting a free squad, maybe team weapons wouldnt need to be nerfed. But then that shifts USF far more towards being a weapon team based faction. Ostheer and even soviets can be pretty team weapons heavy, so I'm not sure that the game needs another team weapons faction.

Of course you could propose alternate positions for units in tech, and different tech timings/costs than the ones I guessed, but I don't see those working out much better. Most alternatives either make the m20 come much too soon, or much too late.

Anyway, I'd like to hear the specifics you have in mind. Mostly tech timings, and which units go where as I doubt my hypotheticals match up with yours.

Followup since my previous post is long.

Also to note that since officers aren't forced on the player, that does open up more room for elite infantry, so the impact on doctrines could balance out. I just don't think you would ever really end up calling in lmg paras or get 1919s on rifles when the captain can bring that much firepower though.

Also also, with USF having much less field presence due to not getting a free squad, maybe team weapons wouldnt need to be nerfed. But then that shifts USF far more towards being a weapon team based faction. Ostheer and even soviets can be pretty team weapons heavy, so I'm not sure that the game needs another team weapons faction.

Of course you could propose alternate positions for units in tech, and different tech timings/costs than the ones I guessed, but I don't see those working out much better. Most alternatives either make the m20 come much too soon, or much too late.

Anyway, I'd like to hear the specifics you have in mind. Mostly tech timings, and which units go where as I doubt my hypotheticals match up with yours.

Your points are all valid, but that doesn’t mean they’d be mutually exclusive with my idea either. I’ll make a new thread later with my exact ideas so we can talk about it.

It would require pretty in depth changes to a lot of prices for tech and team weapons in order to keep timings fair and balanced too. Once I have that new thread up I welcome any input you have.

To be honest it might prove to be a bad idea, but that’s why discussion is so important.

before the patch? penals... after the patch? rifles without a doubt...

I'm all about that AT satchel boiiii.

Your points are all valid, but that doesn’t mean they’d be mutually exclusive with my idea either. I’ll make a new thread later with my exact ideas so we can talk about it.

It would require pretty in depth changes to a lot of prices for tech and team weapons in order to keep timings fair and balanced too. Once I have that new thread up I welcome any input you have.

To be honest it might prove to be a bad idea, but that’s why discussion is so important.

Absolutely, and I'm glad you brought it up. I'm looking forward to the post.

THAT SAID... we did bring up the idea of making officers optional back when we were organizing the USF tech revamp and Relic more or less shut it down. Any discussion is likely to go more in the vein of a thought experiment than an actual rework proposal, unfortunately.

That still doesnt explain why USF gets the best MG in COH2

please tell me why its the best MG. It's the most vulnerable weapon team in the game as it's the only one with 4men and death-loop. 1 mistake, 1 slow reaction or an unlucky deathloop = 50cal is dead af.
Suppression feels weird at times (sometimes instantly suppresses, sometimes it cant suppress a squad standing in the open even after 2 bursts), it has expensive teching cost and locks you out of early AT gun or pak howie. Also smaller cone of fire than most other MGs and (on paper) similar or worse suppression than DshK, MG42 and MG34.


How about I play 1 round of G43 fusilier blob vs your USF and you're not allowed to use 50cals. After the match you explain to us why you lost

The .50 cal is not the best MG, I don't even think it's the second best. It cannot hold down a point on its own it constantly has to be babysat along with most every other unit USF has. I'd even go so far as to say it's worse than the MG34 with its poor arch of fire. Not a very good defensive unit at all.

It's AP ability is pretty inconsequential since anti-vehicle is not a role any MGs are well suited for and besides that doesn't approach the AP rounds of the MG42 so it's not even the best at that either.

The .50 cal is not the best MG, I don't even think it's the second best. It cannot hold down a point on its own it constantly has to be babysat along with most every other unit USF has. I'd even go so far as to say it's worse than the MG34 with its poor arch of fire. Not a very good defensive unit at all.

.50 cal is great if you want it to follow your infantry with an A-move, which it can and will suppress enemies quickly. In teamgames, USF needs suppression badly vs OKW. I wouldn't feel upset if I had to use MG34 or MG42 instead of .50 cal, Vickers is okay too, it's only Maxim that needs to be spammed, vetted or using the ability to work properly.

The .50 cal is not the best MG, I don't even think it's the second best. It cannot hold down a point on its own it constantly has to be babysat along with most every other unit USF has. I'd even go so far as to say it's worse than the MG34 with its poor arch of fire. Not a very good defensive unit at all.

It's AP ability is pretty inconsequential since anti-vehicle is not a role any MGs are well suited for and besides that doesn't approach the AP rounds of the MG42 so it's not even the best at that either.

.50 cal is not a core unit for USF. Maybe that simple fact will solve all your argumentation.
Your unfair comparisons to axis HMGs is just that, unfair biased argumentation, if OST get modular 5 man infantry and strong LV and a fantastic late game TD then after that, and only after that, make .50 cal comparable to HMG42

.50 cal is not a core unit for USF. Maybe that simple fact will solve all your argumentation.
Your unfair comparisons to axis HMGs is just that, unfair biased argumentation, if OST get modular 5 man infantry and strong LV and a fantastic late game TD then after that, and only after that, make .50 cal comparable to HMG42

The .50 cal doesn't have to be comperable to the MG42 but there is no reason why it should cost 20 more MP and 1 more pop over the MG42. I mean why are we paying more for an inferior unit?

but there is no reason why it should cost 20 more MP and 1 more pop over the MG42. I mean why are we paying more for an inferior unit?

Because faction design means that some units are a little more cost effective compared to other factions' similar units. Ostheer is built around the HMG 42, that's why it's a bit more cost effective than some other HMGs. OKW is built around Volksgrenadiers, that's why they are a bit more cost effective and versatile than some other infantry. USF is built around officer squads, that's why their tech is a bit more cost effective than other factions'. UKF is built around Infantry Sections, that's why they are a bit more cost effective than some other infantry. Etc.

Perhaps you should try to play all factions so you don't have to come up with a "grass is greener on the other side" argument in every single discussion because you'll actually learn that most of the time these benefits (the only thing you seem to notice when playing against red units) come with costs (the things you apparently don't notice when playing against red units).

Soviet isn't built around anything that's why cons suck and the maxim sucks and their teching is a manpower leach...

Soviet isn't built around anything that's why cons suck and the maxim sucks and their teching is a manpower leach...

Cheese. Since day 1, they are built around cheese.

Cheese. Since day 1, they are built around cheese.

Ill drink to that.

Soviet isn't built around anything that's why cons suck and the maxim sucks and their teching is a manpower leach...

Soviets are built on crutching on Shocks, T70 and IS2, then throwing men to the meat grinder until you win.

Conscripts could have been the core of the soviet army as Strelki (riflemen) squads, but Relic’s design was insulting. At least the community team is working towards improving things, but the Soviet army needs a revamp desperately.

Soviets are built on crutching on Shocks, T70 and IS2, then throwing men to the meat grinder until you win.

Conscripts could have been the core of the soviet army as Strelki (riflemen) squads, but Relic’s design was insulting. At least the community team is working towards improving things, but the Soviet army needs a revamp desperately.

off topic, but they absolutly CAN work as a support squad to make your heavy hitters preform better, but certainly not at the same price (or close) to the enemies *ahem* independent core infantry. at least once you get tanks on the field now after many minuets of being mowed down by enemy weapon upgrades cans can flip the bill and die more efficiently

Soviets are built on crutching on Shocks, T70 and IS2, then throwing men to the meat grinder until you win.

Conscripts could have been the core of the soviet army as Strelki (riflemen) squads, but Relic’s design was insulting. At least the community team is working towards improving things, but the Soviet army needs a revamp desperately.

I'm far from an expert on the Soviets but I've always had pretty good luck with their Penals into Scout Car then Shocks build. The only problem I've run into with Soviets is their later armor is pretty terrible unless you go with some doctrinal vehicles. USF and UKF have much better late game armor.