Grenadier Veteran Squad Leader: StG44 instead of G43?

This is a follow up poll to one I did a while back concerning the Veteran Squad Leader (VSL) upgrade for Grenadiers in the German Infantry Doctrine. The original is linked below.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/91360/veteran-squad-leader-upgrade-weapon-poll

The original poll had more options, but still provided good feedback on how the community feels about this proposed change.

The idea is that a weapon change for the VSL to an StG44 might be a good idea in a future patch for several reasons.

A: The G43 upgrade for Grenadiers has a lot of overlap with the VSL upgrade.

B: The StG44 is heavily underutilized by the Wehrmacht faction in game while G43s are more common. (Added diversity)

C: There are already 5 versions of Grenadiers in game that all perform differently, and a different weapon for the VSL could help distinguish its different role.
1 Regular Grenadiers, the basic version.
2 LMG42 Grenadiers, better long range DPS and less on the move DPS than regular Grenadiers. Had LMG42 icon.
3 G43 Grenadiers, better moving DPS and close to mid range DPS than regular Grenadiers. Has G43 icon.
4 Assault Grenadiers, different unit with MP40s and is better at colors range but worse at mid to long range. Has MP40 icon.
5 VSL Grenadiers, better at all ranges than regular Grenadiers and on the move. Has better utility abilities and better survivability with its extra model as well as better performance on all regular models. Has G43 icon.


Basically I think that by giving the VSL an StG44 it better differentiates the upgrade from other types of Grenadiers without having a negative effect on balance. With an StG44 the VSL Grenadier Squad would still be a flat upgrade to Grenadiers at all ranges due to the cool down bonus, and at close to mid range and on the move. It’s a win-win for ascetics and squad diversity in the game which will help players, casters and viewers.

I like it the way it is, because the VSL is a general buff at all ranges, which is different from all the other upgrades/variants of grenadiers.

Making it a STG would make it overlap more with panzergrenadiers

I like it the way it is, because the VSL is a general buff at all ranges, which is different from all the other upgrades/variants of grenadiers.

Making it a STG would make it overlap more with panzergrenadiers

Regardless of what variation of StG44, the big benefit of the VSL upgrade is the 5th man and the cool down bonuses on the rest of the squad, so the squads overall DPS at all ranges would hardly change regardless of what weapon you give the squad leader if it’s a PG StG44, VG StG44 or a G43. I just like the StG44 to distinguish it from the other upgrades. PGs will still be your Panzershreck team and have 4 men with strong StG44s for close-mid range DPS. 5 man Grenadiers with 1 StG44 and 4 Kar98ks (with the VSL cooldown bonuses) will still serve as they currently do as a general purpose squad.

We with „design“ team tried to make this upgrade easier to recognise, that‘s why it got unique shieldsymbol. But idea with StG seems cool (iirc squad leader in vCoH also was equiped with StG 44, but used it as with small bursts)

We with „design“ team tried to make this upgrade easier to recognise, that‘s why it got unique shieldsymbol. But idea with StG seems cool (iirc squad leader in vCoH also was equiped with StG 44, but used it as with small bursts)

The new icon is a great improvement. I love it.

The G43 upgrade icon makes it look very similar to the regular G43 icon even with the added chevron symbol though.

That’s one of the reasons I think changing it to an StG would be even better! The different “white gun outline” of an StG44 would further add to that distinction.

And the vCoH tie in is neat too.

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Basically I think that by giving the VSL an StG44 it better differentiates the upgrade from other types of Grenadiers without having a negative effect on balance...

5 men grenadiers are still a long range unit. With a St44 the unit would be inferior to LMG grenadier long range but allot better MID range.

Current 5 men upgrade combines the strength of G43 Grenadiers and LMG Grenadiers, but makes them bleed a bit more.

I think the current design works and if I want STG's, I just get some Panzergrenadiers with it.

5 men grenadiers are still a long range unit. With a St44 the unit would be inferior to LMG grenadier long range but allot better MID range.

Current 5 men upgrade combines the strength of G43 Grenadiers and LMG Grenadiers, but makes them bleed a bit more.

I think the current design works and if I want STG's, I just get some Panzergrenadiers with it.

The suggesting isn’t really about changing stats or role of the unit, it’s really about making VSL Grenadiers more different ascetically from G43 Grenadiers.

The problem isn’t performance, it’s display. The G43 Grenadiers and VSL Grenadiers look, sound and feel the same when they really aren’t.

This is a discussion of art, not of science. It’s not about changing the performance in any meaningful way, it’s about making the game look, sound and feel better and more professional by not using the same icon and rifle on the same unit for two different upgrades.

Think about a team game with two Wehrmacht players, one picks lightning war and gets G43s on his Grenadiers and the other goes German Infantry and gets VSL Grenadiers. To the opponent (or other teammates in a 3v3 or 4v4) the units look, sound and feel very similar since they have the same icon and same sound when firing and to the player who picked the VSL Grenadiers his Grenadiers don’t feel very cool or unique compared to his teammate who has G43s.

“Well you might’ve gotten G43s on your squad but look at MY Grenadiers. MINE have a Veteran Squad Leader and HE has an StG44, isn't that cool!”

Why not MP40? It was weapon of commanders and from art and historic point of view fit to OST more than stg.

The suggesting isn’t really about changing stats or role of the unit, it’s really about making VSL Grenadiers more different ascetically from G43 Grenadiers.
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At some point Relic decide to use weapon profiles which translates the each weapon type should behave in specific manner. Adding yet another version of ST44 that uses a carbine profile for "esthetic" reason is step in the wrong direction imo.

(one could possibly get away with it if the weapon was a St44 at semi auto mode and maybe added an ability to switch to full auto for MU).

(From balance point of view I would make the G43 give 4+1 g43 increase squad size to 5 and re-balance the weapon accordingly, while removing either the g43 or the tiger from lighting war but that is just me ).

Why not MP40? It was weapon of commanders and from art and historic point of view fit to OST more than stg.

It was suggested before but got little traction in the last poll.

Also it has a very different weapon profile when compared to the G43 it would be replacing, which would require significant balance changes. There’s also the fact that you now have the same problem of two similar upgrades not feeling different enough but now it’s between Assault Grenadiers and VSL Grenadiers if you give him an MP40.

Lastly, I’ve done some looking into the actual tables of organization and equipment of various units, including standard German Grenadier and Volksgrenadier battalions in WWII and the Germans issued StG44s pretty much interchangeably with MP40s. A squad leader would be equally correct to have an MP40 or StG44 in a Grenadier company in 1944 or 1945 based on weapon issue rates for that time.

At some point Relic decide to use weapon profiles which translates the each weapon type should behave in specific manner. Adding yet another version of ST44 that uses a carbine profile for "esthetic" reason is step in the wrong direction imo.

(one could possibly get away with it if the weapon was a St44 at semi auto mode and maybe added an ability to switch to full auto for MU).

(From balance point of view I would make the G43 give 4+1 g43 increase squad size to 5 and re-balance the weapon accordingly, while removing either the g43 or the tiger from lighting war but that is just me ).

You don’t need a new version of the StG44 since the Volksgrenadier version and the Panzergrenadier version both have very similar damage curves to the Grenadier G43.

The Volks StG44 would be a slight nerf at all ranges and the Panzergrenadier StG44 would be a decent buff at all ranges except max range (about range 32 and beyond) when compared to the G43.

Either way, when you factor in the cool down buff that VSL Grens get, a VSL squad with 4 Grenadier K98s and one Volks StG, one PanzerGren StG or one Gren G43 will have better DPS than all other types of Grenadiers at all ranges except LMG42 Grens at max range (starting at about 32 range).

Why not MP40? It was weapon of commanders and from art and historic point of view fit to OST more than stg.

4 Kar98 with 1 Mp40? no

There are a few ideas I have in mind.

1) Everyone in the squad gets scoped Kar98s for improved long range accuracy.

2) Squad leader gets an MG42. Exactly like regular mg42 upgrade, except you get +1 model.

3) Squad leader gets an mp40 or kar98, or G43, but squad gets another ability. Perhaps sprint, or maybe pgren combined arms ability near vehicles, or calling artillery, or improved vision in cover or area heal like Brits medkits.

You don’t need a new version of the StG44 since the Volksgrenadier version and the Panzergrenadier version both have very similar damage curves to the Grenadier G43.
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The VG ST44 profile is close to G43 when static (and imo it badly design) the PG's ST44 is completely different.

The VG ST44 profile is close to G43 when static (and imo it badly design) the PG's ST44 is completely different.

I don’t know about it being completely different. The PG StG44 is pretty much just better at all ranges than the Gren G43 except once you get farther than 32-33 range. At that point the G43 is slightly better, but not by that much. The PG StG44 really has better mid range, but I don’t really think that’s a bad thing either. If you give the VSL a PG StG44 then it buffs pretty much all combat ranges and still has pretty good stats while moving.

Now you’d have a more clear role for the VSL upgrade.

1. LMG42 = best at long range, worst on the move.
2. G43s = better at all ranges, best on the move.
3. VSL with PG StG44 = better at all ranges, best survivability, not quite as good as G43s on the move.

Now you’ve got three different upgrades that do different things. The look different, they sound different and they overlap less with each other.

Unrelated: Pgrens 3 G43s should be substituted with 2 IR stgs.

There are a few ideas I have in mind.

1) Everyone in the squad gets scoped Kar98s for improved long range accuracy.

2) Squad leader gets an MG42. Exactly like regular mg42 upgrade, except you get +1 model.

3) Squad leader gets an mp40 or kar98, or G43, but squad gets another ability. Perhaps sprint, or maybe pgren combined arms ability near vehicles, or calling artillery, or improved vision in cover or area heal like Brits medkits.

1) There is no scoped K98 model on the game, so that can’t be done.

2) Too much like the regular LMG upgrade, so then why would you ever get the regular version? It’s supposed to be a unique upgrade with its own role, not just a better version of something already available.

3) the squad already gets bonus rifle cool down and a medic ability. It doesn’t really need any more bonuses as it’s already “in a good spot”.

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3. VSL with PG StG44 = better at all ranges, best survivability, not quite as good as G43s on the move.
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There is an issue with good transferable weapons in large squad and that DPS lose. Squads like ST44 VGs and PPsh conscripts lose disproportional little DPS when losing models and that makes over-perform.
I suspect that a 4k98+1St44 would have the same effect making the squad too good vs mid/QCQ units. I can probably make a MOD for you to test it if you are interested.

There is an issue with good transferable weapons in large squad and that DPS lose. Squads like ST44 VGs and PPsh conscripts lose disproportional little DPS when losing models and that makes over-perform.
I suspect that a 4k98+1St44 would have the same effect making the squad too good vs mid/QCQ units. I can probably make a MOD for you to test it if you are interested.

Would the weapon need to be transferable though? Could it be made to be like the Lieutenant and Captain Thompson and be locked to only one model? I’m not sure about that at all actually. Can it even be done and if so, should it even be done? If it requires a different model for this to work then I suggest the Obersoldaten model and give him a Panzergrenadier StG44 that is not transferable. The Obersoldaten camouflage uniform is different enough from the regular Grenadier uniform that it would help both sides know when the VSL is alive with his more powerful weapon and when he is not. Plus the Obersoldaten model actually has StG44 magazine pouches. Lol

Regardless, it would still be less powerful at mid to close range than a Panzergrenadier squad with the same number of models until you reach only one model and then it should be the same. The other option would be to use the Volksgrenadier StG44 profile that is less powerful up close (and actually slightly better at long range too.)