su76 need adjustments

Cheap in current cost, but expensive in aftermath. You will delay core building of your nation and have huge risk to lose su-76.
I ask again: if it so "good cheap emergency food" why no one use it? Maybe because if you like eat "cheap" sugar candies, after it you will go to dentist and will pay huge bill for your tooth?

I guess you never heard of emergency field rations.

I guess you never heard of emergency field rations.

I guess you never ever BUY emergency field rations in the middle of the field? Emergency field ration - ALWAYS with you, you don't PAY for it. That's why it called emergency. The more correct in our case call it - reserve food.

But if you eat "cheap" sugar candies, you have huge risk to pay bill for dentist. SU-76 - cheap "sugar" candy. P4 (and 2-nd P4 if you can't kill 1-st with your SU-76) and huge risk to lose SU-76 - bill for dentist.

Show me all these light vehicles who have up to 160 armor(pumas pen, SU-76 got even higher max pen, and more generous long range pen and pen dropoff, point is, no LV in game got as much armor as they got pen).

What you're not getting for whatever reason is that units are balanced and scaled off these "magic baseline numbers" elchino was talking about, but it doesn't mean units have or can fight exclusively in their own "weight category". They are balanced for their timing and for other vehicles around that timing, nothing prohibits them from engaging later and heavier units, Puma is well known for roflstomping stock meds, while SU-76 used to be less bursty, more flexible SU-85 alternative.

About SU-76 i already told - it must become only hardcounter against LV (get penetration to level of puma), while become AI support unit with some AT.


I don't even see how su-76 balanced in it timeframe. Build subpar AT against mediums with some AI, why you need it at all? When you can build strong AT with some AI (Zis)?
I already did show 2 possible ways from T3 with SU-76 as 1-st unit and 2-nd unit right after T-70. Both ways don't work at all for su-76 sake. You or lose field pressure against german infantry with weapon upgrades (when you build su-76 as 1-st unit) or make your overall situation more worse if build it as 2-nd unit. Without T4 you can't fight effectively against OST T3. Against OKW, situation will be more darker (if you build su-76 after T-70).

I ask gain: why we so rare saw old pgrens in game?

About SU-76 i already told - it must become only hardcounter against LV (get penetration to level of puma), while become AI support unit with some AT.

You've just described T-70.

I don't even see how su-76 balanced in it timeframe. Build subpar AT against mediums with some AI, why you need it at all? When you can build strong AT with some AI (Zis)?
I already did show 2 possible ways from T3 with SU-76 as 1-st unit and 2-nd unit right after T-70. Both ways don't work at all for su-76 sake. You or lose field pressure against german infantry with weapon upgrades (when you build su-76 as 1-st unit) or make your overall situation more worse if build it as 2-nd unit. Without T4 you can't fight effectively against OST T3. Against OKW, situation will be more darker (if you build su-76 after T-70).

It was(and probably still could be) perfect support vehicle for KV-1, allowing KV-1 to go up against high armor targets that aren't heavies with its support.

I ask gain: why we so rare saw old pgrens in game?

Because it wasn't needed at all?
222 took care of all the light vehicles and flame HT roasted(and still roasts) all the infantry, including one wielding PTRS.

You've just described T-70.

I pointed on it earlier, if player will be have 2 choice:
1. Fast, aggressive AI - T-70
2. Defense-style AI - SU-76
SU-76 have chance to be in-game, if it AI support tool. T-70 don't counter puma, while give you very constant AI. In other hand - su-76 will be keep the same high chances against puma, but AI will be more rearranged through time (not so constant as for T-70). T-70 have higher chance to get faust or mine, while SU-76 with defense style of AI not. But in "Fire mode" it will be very vulnerable to any sorts of diving (p2 or puma or 222) due to penalty of movement. While T-70 have lesser chances to be dived.
We have balance through 2 units.

It was(and probably still could be) perfect support vehicle for KV-1, allowing KV-1 to go up against high armor targets that aren't heavies with its support.

Zis the still better support kv-1. How many games through kv-1 i saw, it almost in every game was zis.

Because it wasn't needed at all?
222 took care of all the light vehicles and flame HT roasted(and still roasts) all the infantry, including one wielding PTRS.

That the reason why pgrens were rebalanced and this reason why SU-76 not popular. Against LV you have ptrs or T-70, against mediums - zis with cons and nades.
Who need Su-76 in this case?

I guess you never ever BUY emergency field rations in the middle of the field? Emergency field ration - ALWAYS with you, you don't PAY for it. That's why it called emergency. The more correct in our case call it - reserve food.

But if you eat "cheap" sugar candies, you have huge risk to pay bill for dentist. SU-76 - cheap "sugar" candy. P4 (and 2-nd P4 if you can't kill 1-st with your SU-76) and huge risk to lose SU-76 - bill for dentist.

You also don't "pay" for normal rations either.

The cost is the extra weight you carry.
However the point is that emergency rations are a food consumed when you cant get normal rations and are meant as a stop gap to last until you get normal rations.

The su76 is an anti tank option that you get to tide you over until you can get more serious mobile anti tank options.


Neither the su76 nor emergency rations are meant to be used all the time, they are meant to be used as a temporary substitute and both have opportunity costs. Both are useful.

I really have to wonder if anyone has actually used the SU-76 in this theoretical 'emergency' role or if this is all just made-up nonsense.

Does anyone actually bite the bullet and pay up 75 fuel for this as a stopgap AT unit when backteching to the ZIS-3 is not only far more fuel-efficient but also far more effective in said role? And that's assuming T2 hasn't been built already in this theorycraft BS world.

Does the SU-76 get used competitively? I'm going to say no.
Why? I'm going to say because it's not particularly good at anything and subsumed by the cheaper and generally far more effective ZIS-3 field gun (one of which happens to be mounted on top the SU-76 by the way, yet somehow a far less effective version...)

Better penetration. Better damage. Far shorter barrage recharge. Generally better survivability versus the units it is supposed to destroy and the ability to be recrewed or replenished by conscripts if need be.

It seems pretty obvious to me that either the AT or the AI unit needs to get buffed. Can even raise the price some to compensate if need be, but as it is the unit is not competitive.

Inb4 'nerf X unit to make this one more viable instead xDDDD' school of balance rears its ugly head in response.

You also don't "pay" for normal rations either.

The cost is the extra weight you carry.
However the point is that emergency rations are a food consumed when you cant get normal rations and are meant as a stop gap to last until you get normal rations.

The su76 is an anti tank option that you get to tide you over until you can get more serious mobile anti tank options.


Neither the su76 nor emergency rations are meant to be used all the time, they are meant to be used as a temporary substitute and both have opportunity costs. Both are useful.

IMO a unit for "emergency" shows a broken design, since a player will never bulid it unless his opponent has advantage over him.

Fun fact is, even so many people in this post claimed that su-76 is good when you need temporary mobile anti-tank platform, it didn't appear in recent tourneys. Maybe soviet players are soo good that they never run into such trouble

IMO a unit for "emergency" shows a broken design, since a player will never bulid it unless his opponent has advantage over him.

Fun fact is, even so many people in this post claimed that su-76 is good when you need temporary mobile anti-tank platform, it didn't appear in recent tourneys. Maybe soviet players are soo good that they never run into such trouble

I see the Soviet 82mm mortar less than I see the su76, but I don't think that's because the PM-41 is a bad unit.

That point aside, having thought about it I think a major reason the su76 isnt used is because tier 3 cant get you through the whole game as Soviets. You are required at some point to tech to tier 4 and any fuel purchases delay that inevitability. The StuG really isnt that much more cost efficient if at all than the su76, but it's in a tier that can last a player a whole match. You dont NEED a panther.

If the t34 was in tier 3, su76 would certainly see more use and ignoring tier 4 entirely would be viable. I am not however advocating for that.

I see the Soviet 82mm mortar less than I see the su76, but I don't think that's because the PM-41 is a bad unit.

Soviet mortar will always appear in 4v4 or 3v3, maybe it's because you are not familiar with all gamemodes.

In large team games people get pm-41 for its flare like they get m5 for AA. They got su-76 for its free barrage before the nerf, but not now.

Soviet t3 now is like you get only 2 vehicles through teching up, while other factions are getting more things playable. Su-76 should at least get a improvement in utility, like the buff given to pm-41: making flare available in vet0, not vet1.

My idea on it is to give it toggle ability to set up like okw aa-halftrack, and fires indirect shells in a fire arc (like leigs) within 60 range. If that's what it gains, nerf its penertration to that of pumas. So at least if you skip t2, su-76 can provide mobile indirects with persistency and enough at to counter lights. Then this unit is playeable again with soviet multi-purpose philosophy.

You also don't "pay" for normal rations either.

The cost is the extra weight you carry.
However the point is that emergency rations are a food consumed when you cant get normal rations and are meant as a stop gap to last until you get normal rations.

The su76 is an anti tank option that you get to tide you over until you can get more serious mobile anti tank options.


Neither the su76 nor emergency rations are meant to be used all the time, they are meant to be used as a temporary substitute and both have opportunity costs. Both are useful.

Your comparsion of SU-76 as "emergency" food totally not working. Pgrens with shreck - "emergency" AT, penals with ptrs - "emergency" AT against LV, ostwind -"emergency" AA or AI, M5 with quad -"emergency" AA, hell yea, even At-nades for cons "emergency" AT against LV. Pgrens, penals and cons could be in the field already and upgrades work for them as "emergency" rations, if you like this comparsion. While ostwind, M5 wneh builded completely negate threat. SU-76 don't fit in any range.

If you want make comparsion of SU-76 it will be homeopathic pill when you need antibiotic. It can only ease your pain, but not heal your illness. Instead of "homepathic" SU-76 much better eat "antibiotic" zis-3, even if you need backteching.

Su-76 should be redesigned to become AI support tool like it was in reality. AT is just secondary ability, not main role. The most closer unit to SU-76 - StugE. StugE mainly AI support tool and have AT ability. SU-76 must become the similar unit.

My suggestions:
Show Spoiler

Your comparsion of SU-76 as "emergency" food totally not working. Pgrens with shreck - "emergency" AT, penals with ptrs - "emergency" AT against LV, ostwind -"emergency" AA or AI, M5 with quad -"emergency" AA, hell yea, even At-nades for cons "emergency" AT against LV. Pgrens, penals and cons could be in the field already and upgrades work for them as "emergency" rations, if you like this comparsion. While ostwind, M5 wneh builded completely negate threat. SU-76 don't fit in any range.

If you want make comparsion of SU-76 it will be homeopathic pill when you need antibiotic. It can only ease your pain, but not heal your illness. Instead of "homepathic" SU-76 much better eat "antibiotic" zis-3, even if you need backteching.

Then that also applies to the StuG. Panther and pak 40 both are better at AT than StuG, just like su85 and zis are better at AT than su76.

Except of course the Su76 can engage at a safer distance, costs less and has an indirect fire option, while the StuG does more damage per shot and is more durable.

I can say with absolute certainty that if the StuG had the same stats as the su76, it would still get used.

Then that also applies to the StuG. Panther and pak 40 both are better at AT than StuG, just like su85 and zis are better at AT than su76.

Except of course the Su76 can engage at a safer distance, costs less and has an indirect fire option, while the StuG does more damage per shot and is more durable.

I can say with absolute certainty that if the StuG had the same stats as the su76, it would still get used.

As AT vs mediums stug works pretty well - always hit and always pen any stock medium, if don't move (say hi to Yuriy - he can miss to medium). It could be build in tier when player have all tools for game until the end. From SU T3 you can't play the whole game. Call-in meta was removed long-time ago and heavy call-in was removed also.

You want have in OST T3 squishy 400 hp unit with light armor and cost 75 fuel? Unit that only will be hardcounter to LV (stuart, t-70 or AEC)? But if you want have OST version, it chance to pen ally medium should be the same as for SU SU-76 pen OST medium (and you in that moment understand how silly looks, try to counter with LV hardcounter any mediums) and don't forget - 1 snare or flank from Stuart, T-70, AEC or AP-burst from USF M2 and it will be dead OST SU-76. Also don't forget bazookas, piats and ptrs they all will be pretty viable against so tiny-armored TD. Just 3 shots from atg or even from t-34/76 and you dead. -75 fuel. Any AT ability (SU AT arty, USF planes) also will kill any spam of su-76 pretty quick. Yes, you will get barrage (but OST mortar will be much more usefull IMHO) and maybe you will use it someday.

And again:
Stug - hardcounter vs any stock mediums, could fight against pershing and will be softcounter to is-2 or churchill. 2 Stug can keep at bay pershing or will be enough threat for other heavies.
SU-76 - hardcounter vs LV and softcounter vs mediums. Against heavies it even don't work if you build 2 SU-76 (even if you have 1 zis and 2 su-76 you will be in worse position against heavy than player with 2 stugs and 1 pak). Compare stug and su-76 tottaly wrong. They have only one common thing - both turretless.

Want try SU-76 spam against is-2, pershing or churchill?

Question 1: if you OST and can build SU-76 in T3 (or T2), in which situations you will be build it?
Question 2: if you SU and can build stug in T3, in which situations you will be build it? Answer: hardcounter against P4.

SU-76 just need to change role to AI support and it fully resolve this weirdy situation. AS like old ostwind become good AA and pretty strong AI.

@Serrif I can't understand one thing, what in my suggestions so scare you? I don't see any critique of my suggestions, only attempts to prove that SU-76 is good and popular unit and all SU player don't see this hidden gem in their hands -@sarcasm

My suggestions:
Show Spoiler

In this design it even can't be softcounter to medium. Or it will be very expensive softcounter for it's cost. Even M-42 will be much more better than this.

....

I have been disagreeing with your assessment of the Su76 performance, and the reasons for it being used infrequently. I will address that again, then my thoughts on your suggestions.


Yes an ostheer player would absolutely use a unit like the su76 if it replaced the stug. The issues of it getting flanked and punished are ones that can be overcome through proper support. If a StuG gets flanked by an AEC, it will die just like if an Su76 got flanked by a puma. Use the Su76 as conservatively as you would an Su85 and you cant go wrong. At least the su76 has the speed to pull back from a panzer 4, the 85 doesnt.

You use the Su76 for zoning and area denial. You dont try to kill tanks with it, you put them at low enough health where they cant charge without getting a guaranteed snare. You dont need to massacre infantry with the barrage, you just need to force an mg to retreat.


As for your suggestions:

I am against the first one as its too exploitable (eg enter the mode when the barrage is off cooldown, fire the barrage, then exit the mode) and a costless barrage on a cheap vehicle with AT as decent as the Su76 is not a good idea.

Your second suggestion... I'm not entirely sure how that's different than the current barrage unless you mean a direct fire barrage and I still dont know why it should be changed like that.

Your third suggestion has merit. Soviets have a severe lack of non doctrinal smoke options and a vet 1 smoke barrage could give it a lot of utility. I do however worry about the amount of smoke a pair of su76 could lay down at long range so if this is implemented, the smoke barrage would need a long cooldown.

AP rounds- While it's not horrible, I do not think the ability would be worth the micro tax or cost.

Yes an ostheer player would absolutely use a unit like the su76 if it replaced the stug.

It means - never? How much you see SU SU-76 in games? How much you see SU-76 in pros games? OST players will never use such "sub TD" unit. If it will be call-in maybe, but not if you must make teching for this and pay such high price only for "zoning". You can build stug if you stuck in T3 and enemy push you by mediums or heavy. But you never build su-76 when you stuck in SU T3. Because ZIS.
Just imagine if in OST T2 will be SU-76 for 75 fuel cost. Do you ever will build it? For hardcounter this bloody t-70 as example? Answer - NO. You just delay your own core building and give enemy 3.5 minutes of freedom. Your P4 will arrive in this case only in 16-17 minute. You don't get field pressure like it was in case of 222 or flameht.
If SU-76 was in OST T3? For which targets? In T3 you could build 1-st SU-76 on 10 minute. You will trying to chase t-70? Or barraging SU maxims? In 11 minute you can build OSTWIND - hardcounter against t-70, stuart and really strong AI. Do you still think you need SU-76 in OST T3?

As for your suggestions:

I am against the first one as its too exploitable (eg enter the mode when the barrage is off cooldown, fire the barrage, then exit the mode) and a costless barrage on a cheap vehicle with AT as decent as the Su76 is not a good idea.

Your second suggestion... I'm not entirely sure how that's different than the current barrage unless you mean a direct fire barrage and I still dont know why it should be changed like that.

Your third suggestion has merit. Soviets have a severe lack of non doctrinal smoke options and a vet 1 smoke barrage could give it a lot of utility. I do however worry about the amount of smoke a pair of su76 could lay down at long range so if this is implemented, the smoke barrage would need a long cooldown.

AP rounds- While it's not horrible, I do not think the ability would be worth the micro tax or cost.

1. You will get movement and rotation penalty like su-85 after focus mode. AT of su-76 reduced to puma level as was wrote in the end (160-120-80 against current 180-170-160). And don't forget about microtasking. If enemy have at least 1 armor unit on the field, such "play" will be punished very hard. Or you when play for OST never catch up su-85 when focus mode just turn off?
2. It's the same as old barrage, just ability when you not in mode. You should have something when in not mode.
3. Smoke easy to balance - make the same range as for leig or pak howi.
4. AP rounds - don't make from su-76 cruel AT-hunter, but replace (in different way) ability of commander sight. You will get vision on armor unit that was hitted. It could help to zis-guns. Thats how support works. He just help his comrades do their job.

My main idea was give to player 2 viable start options on T3: t-70 or Su-76. If you opponent will make spam of su-76, how he supposed to fight with 1-st p4 ? And again su-76 will be more static, it will be better for defense, not for offense like T-70. You can't chase and wipe retreating squads. You also not get such useful ability as recon of T-70.

When SU player build T3 he could build t-70 or su-76 at 9 minute. At 13 minute 1-st p4 will arrive.
Average fuel income in 1vs1 +23 fuel (you have 1 fuel point and half of map). You think that 1 su-76 will get you more pain than T-70 rolling over battlefield and chasing your retreating squads? Yes, you can build 2-nd su-76 on 13 minute. But i think no one ever will try to do this. It will be very silly move.

When you have T4 you never ever want to build this su-76, you have katy with much more bigger range and wipe potential (and cost similar to su-76).
With such design it will not become exploitable.

The su76 isn't a staple unit. That's why you don't see it every game. It's role is reactionary not meta leading. You hukd it if you need it, you don't build a BO around it any more. Just because you don't see it frequently doesn't mean it's failing or needs work. The fact you are even saying (uuuh he builds a shock light tank instead of a tank destroyer to fight enemy infantry before they get a tank out "is hilarious.

IT'S THERE IF YOU NEED IT NOT AS AN ALWAYS BUILD.
to rephrase
IF YOU NEED IT IT IS THERE BUT BECAUSE YOU DON'T ALWAYS NEED IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S POORLY DESIGNED

In linear tech there are often redundancy, there is no denying that the su85 is better, but if you can't afford to tech up and need some hard (as in not countered by small arms) AT you can have 3 for the cost it would take getting to the su85.
It's there to give you a chance to come back if you need it.
Fuck.
Why is this so difficult to understand?

And just because YOU don't build an su76 and prefer to back tech doesn't mean all of us do. When you are up to your taint in ass grens I'd like to see you getting by with just a zis. Sometimes you need something the enemy infantry can't sprint at. I'd sooner have the option to do as I please than be forced to shell out all the manpower in back teching (taking a unit of the front, taking the time to build the building, taking the time to buold the zis, taking the time to walk the zis to where I need it) when I CAN get a mobile unit immune to small arms. It's niche. Yes. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have merit.

And just because YOU don't build an su76 and prefer to back tech doesn't mean all of us do.

Him and almost everyone else. But hey, SU 76 is fine...

IT'S THERE IF YOU NEED IT NOT AS AN ALWAYS BUILD.
to rephrase
IF YOU NEED IT IT IS THERE BUT BECAUSE YOU DON'T ALWAYS NEED IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S POORLY DESIGNED

Could i apply this sentence to "old ostwind" and "old pgrens"? Just told me.

And just because YOU don't build an su76 and prefer to back tech doesn't mean all of us do.
I'd sooner have the option to do as I please than be forced to shell out all the manpower in back teching (taking a unit of the front, taking the time to build the building, taking the time to buold the zis, taking the time to walk the zis to where I need it) when I CAN get a mobile unit immune to small arms. It's niche. Yes. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have merit.

Again, how much you see SU-76 in competitve games like last 1vs1 champ? And if i used old pgrens and old ostwinds (like some OST players too) means that they didn't need these changes? Because if someone use them, means they were fine?
Your logic sequence works in that way? Just told me.