The State of Conscript Assault Package in the current game.

This is a revamp of a post I made in the Soviet Discussion, it went unnoticed but I feel it is worth discussing. I feel like Conscript Assault Package's positioning in the game is outdated, from a time when their main opponent were Grenadiers and Assault Grenadiers hadn't even been released yet, let alone moved to 0CP. Yet Conscripts are now expected to contend with earlier Panzergrenadiers, Volksgrenadiers with MP 44's, meanwhile other new assault units have been added to USF and UKF that come earlier and pack more punch (Section Assault Package, Cavalry Riflemen). Let's look at some common contemporary assault units and assault abilities:

0CP: Assault Grenadiers, Assault Engineers, Section Assault Package, Assault Package (Feuersturm)

1CP: Cavalry Riflemen, Weapons Crate Drop

2CP: Shock Troops, Jaeger Light Infantry Upgrade, Conscript Assault Package (balance patch)

3CP: Rangers, Commandos, Conscript Assault Package (live game)


The most direct comparisons would probably be the Section Assault Package, Assault Package (for Volk), or Weapon Crate (for Penals).

• The Section Assault Package comes at 0CP and grants you 2 Thompsons and 3 STEN's whilst also removing out of cover penalties; although it does lock them out of their Medic and so will not be amassed.
  
• The Assault Package for Volksgrenadiers costs 45 munitions and provides a full compliment of Assault Grenadier MP 40's, plus smoke grenades; compared to 60 minutions for 3 Conscript PPSh's.
  
• Closer to home is the Penal Squad, for 45 Munitions they can pick up 4 Shock Troop PPSh's; cheaper, more numerous, and superior to the Conscript PPSh.
  
• The original counterpart Jaeger Infantry Package is not an assault package, but being an early counterpart to the Conscript Assault Package does make it comparable. Their laser rifles are a far superior upgrade that considerably improves Grenadier DPS at all ranges, compared to the Conscript Assault Package which merely makes them a viable unit.
  

Not only is the Conscript Assault Package possibly the weakest unit/upgrade of the bunch, but also the latest to arrive. In the initial post I mentioned that CAP is the only "Assault unit" to have a vehicle snare, however this was not correct as the Volksgrenadier Assault Package and counterpart G43 upgrade both retain the Panzerfaust vehicle snare. Furthermore with Penal Troops being the mainstay of Soviet Infantry (not Conscripts) and having a superior PPSh upgrade, there still isn't a whole lot of desire for the Conscript Assault Package in its current form.

It was hard to not go off scope and talk about the problems with Conscripts as a whole, but I want to keep this constrained to the Conscript Assault Package compared to it's contemporaries. I feel this ability has started off weaker than it's counterpart, the Jaeger Light Infantry Package, and has been completely left behind by Western Front Army's / British Forces power creep. Rather than talk about Conscripts as a whole, I just want to see the Conscript Assault Package brought up to par with some of the similar abilities.

Cons with ppshs are really cheap to reinforce and to make initially, and they've got molotovs, AT nades, sprint, tripwires, and sandbags. They also still get pretty tough with vet and 3 ppshs is still enough firepower to off most axis squads anyway. They're the conscripts of assault infantry just like normal conscripts are (obviously) the conscripts of mainline: inferior DPS but good utility and survivability.

if im not wrong u need tier 1 built for both okw ans ukf tho

I agree. At least the cost should be comparable.

this is likely because T1 is soo strong and the utility of conscripts syncs well with the strength of T1...

of course the balance team is ignoring how almost every soviet victory in the tourney involves a T1 build one way or another and refuses to think otherwise...

To be fair, Section Assault Package needs T1, putting it more around CP1 than CP0.

I'm not really sure what makes Conscripts so powerful that they have have to be loaded down with shackle after shackle.

Their abilities are locked behind side tech.
Their upgrade is locked behind T4.
Their doctrine weapon upgrades are timed like elite infantry.

What's so good about this squad that it needs to be weighed down so hard?

To be fair, Section Assault Package needs T1, putting it more around CP1 than CP0.

I'm not really sure what makes Conscripts so powerful that they have have to be loaded down with shackle after shackle.

Their abilities are locked behind side tech.
Their upgrade is locked behind T4.
Their doctrine weapon upgrades are timed like elite infantry.

What's so good about this squad that it needs to be weighed down so hard?

Because the "ridiculous role": conscripts should not be viable they should be a cheap meat shield. I'm already tired of this Conscript - Penals tug of war and inventing roles to at least somehow justify this is a very bad design.

I’d like to see the conscript Assault package PPSh upgrade be more like the Volksgrenadier StG44 upgrade, a universal buff at close to mid range while being roughly the same at long range, but not being super strong at close range either.

Change it to be:

40 munitions for 2 PPShs
Takes up all weapon slots.
Still allows for 7 man conscript upgrade, but no other weapon pick ups.

Adjust damage profile of Conscript PPSh to be similar but slightly weaker than Volks StGs at long and mid range, but slightly better at close range. This preserves the dynamic between Conscripts and other mainline Axis infantry, where Cons win at short range against un-upgraded Volks and Grens.

New Con PPSh damage profile should be equal to Con Mosin-Nagant rifles at long range just as Volks StG44s are the same as Volks K98s at long range, but also like Volk StGs they get better as closer ranges.

This would make Cons much more viable and basically emulate the effect that Volk StGs have. It’s a no brained upgrade if you have the munitions where the only downfall is that you can’t grab a dropped weapon. With only 2 PPShs it would make Cons better, but not op and as a doctrinal upgrade it would not be used to excess.

I think you fail to realize how good ppsh cons are.

I think you fail to realize how good ppsh cons are.

in what sense? volksgren MP-40s are better...

I think you fail to realize how good ppsh cons are.

It's not a case of if they're good, it's a case of are they significantly better than all the other non-elite CQC infantry?

And if they're not, is there another reason for the timing disparity?

It's not a case of if they're good, it's a case of are they significantly better than all the other non-elite CQC infantry?

And if they're not, is there another reason for the timing disparity?

For many reason including faction design.
For instance MP-40 where CP 3 no one would ever use the ability because they would already have ST44.

For many reason including faction design.
For instance MP-40 where CP 3 no one would ever use the ability because they would already have ST44.

then why not make 7 man conscripts come at the same time as the STG44? theyre comparable upgrades but conscripts get horrible treatment from the balance team because of penals... >.>

in what sense? volksgren MP-40s are better...

Scaling.
Cons, being so shit over the years have above average vet, couple that with weapon upgrade and you have actually decent infantry - shackled by doctrines, but decent.

PPSH arrived late, but it made them very viable, cons problems always originated from early game, where they were roflstomped by OKW and outmatched by Ost.

then why not make 7 man conscripts come at the same time as the STG44? theyre comparable upgrades but conscripts get horrible treatment from the balance team because of penals... >.>

If you can not see why 7 men conscripts from minute 2-3 would be broken I can not help you. Ask the MOD team.

As for St44 I have said it this many times one need to rethink/redesign it.

And Idea behind the 7 men conscripts is this:

To improve the performance of Conscripts, while retaining their role as utility infantry that excel at defense and supporting other units, we have added an upgrade to help them scale into the late game. The extra man and reduced reinforce cost will allow them to more effectively trade against opposing infantry while the veterancy bonus will allow fresh Conscript squads to gain veterancy.

If you can not see why 7 men conscripts from minute 2-3 would be broken I can not help you. Ask the MOD team.

maybe in the presence of penals sure... but a T2 build melts pretty quickly once the STG volks start popping out...

even LMG grens can kick T2 arse pretty hard as its simply outmatched by superior line infantry AND support teams

As for St44 I have said it this many times one need to rethink/redesign it.

almost all factions get early weapon upgrades though... but yes the STG needs to be less of a no brainer upgrade

To improve the performance of Conscripts, while retaining their role as utility infantry that excel at defense and supporting other units, we have added an upgrade to help them scale into the late game. The extra man and reduced reinforce cost will allow them to more effectively trade against opposing infantry while the veterancy bonus will allow fresh Conscript squads to gain veterancy.

in the absence of penals conscripts are quite literally the only infantry you get... it was originally intended for the maxim to be the assault mg with the conscripts as utility.. but people dont like this hence the original idea has to be scrapped for a more valuable mainline

maybe in the presence of penals sure... but a T2 build melts pretty quickly once the STG volks start popping out...

even LMG grens can kick T2 arse pretty hard as its simply outmatched by superior line infantry AND support teams




almost all factions get early weapon upgrades though... but yes the STG needs to be less of a no brainer upgrade



in the absence of penals conscripts are quite literally the only infantry you get... it was originally intended for the maxim to be the assault mg with the conscripts as utility.. but people dont like this hence the original idea has to be scrapped for a more valuable mainline

I have never heard any one from Relic wanting to design maxim as assault HMG.

This is probably an urban myth. On the contrary :
Weapon Teams
Focus on improving early game flow and balance. Weapon teams should be support units rather than front line soldiers. The Maxim and MG42 had their weapon profiles adjusted slightly, resulting in some performance modifications. As a result of this change, the Maxim should suppression slightly faster than before. Their overall DPS remains relatively unchanged. The changes to weapon traverse make flanking a MG easier when using multiple squads.

Simply when OKW where released people noticed that they lucked the proper tools to deal with HMGs and abuse it.



Maxim HMG
We felt the Maxim HMG was overperforming in the early game due to its fast set-up. We also made adjustments to its build time and cost so it takes longer to reach the field and so it doesnt replace mainline infantry.

I have never heard any one from Relic wanting to design maxim as assault HMG.

This is probably an urban myth. On the contrary :
Weapon Teams
Focus on improving early game flow and balance. Weapon teams should be support units rather than front line soldiers. The Maxim and MG42 had their weapon profiles adjusted slightly, resulting in some performance modifications. As a result of this change, the Maxim should suppression slightly faster than before. Their overall DPS remains relatively unchanged. The changes to weapon traverse make flanking a MG easier when using multiple squads.

Simply when OKW where released people noticed that they lucked the proper tools to deal with HMGs and abuse it.



Maxim HMG
We felt the Maxim HMG was overperforming in the early game due to its fast set-up. We also made adjustments to its build time and cost so it takes longer to reach the field and so it doesnt replace mainline infantry.

if maxims are supposed to be support and conscripts are meant to be support aswell... then what the hell are they supposed to be supporting?

if maxims are supposed to be support and conscripts are meant to be support aswell... then what the hell are they supposed to be supporting?

Another philosophical question...

Each other.

A husband and wife are stronger than a man and woman

Another philosophical question...

Each other.

A husband and wife are stronger than a man and woman

Please, put husband in T0

I too think that con PPSh package comes pretty late considering OST have Assgrens with 5x MP40 and sprint from the start if they pick such doctrine, no MU investment in MP40 whatsoever.