120mm Mortars & Grens Vs Cons

Doesn't precision strike have a range decrease?

Also 120mm is doctrinal on only a few is it 2? commanders and Germans get the mortar HT on at least 2 as well which is also a beast with the fire bomb that can kill multiple support units and AT guns just as easily tbh and it doesn't need vet and its easier to keep alive.

120mm can be annoying yes but so is getting all your cons or guards wiped like a hot knife through butter out whenever they meet any German infantry. People just get annoyed at units when they lose against them, I do the same everyone does.

Nerfing the 120mm would make it no good most of the time as opposed to some of the time like it is now = no one uses it + I find it kills as many of your own units as it does the enemy half the time anyway.

I haven't found shift clicking to overly micro intensive at all. In fact I shift click my squads around my base while they are reinforcing so they automatically head where I need them when they are done reinforcing. ~1 lap around the base for ~3 squad members. It also seems to work well for dodging mortar fire while capping which is why I recommended it. If it's too much for you then that is your problem I guess.

You don't have to use the flame barrage, but the MHT can apply pressure to the 120 and keep it moving. The 120 is only really effective if it can remain static for periods of time. With the high mobility of the MHT it can be constantly on the move harassing the 120 and forcing it to move. Or at least I haven't had much luck using the 120 to fire back on a MHT if the MHT got the first couple shots off. Odds are the MHT will land the first hit if it gets to fire the first couple rounds. I'd have to check stats later but I don't think there are huge discrepancies between their accuracy and damage.

Shift-click-capping works to dodge 82mm shells but the blast radius of the 120mm shells is too big so it makes no difference.
Also, when I'm in an engagement I have the choice to remain in cover and so taking the risk to get wiped by the mortar or move around constantly and lose my advantage towards the enemy inf.

The problem with the 120mm is, that it is a 1cp 360mp unit that reliably oneshots full health inf squads across the map.

Let's take langreskaja for an example;
Park the 120mm in your base and it roughly covers 2/3 of the map. The MHT needs to drive up to the height of the middle vp to even get in range... And between you and the mortar usually lies the whole bunch of soviet troops.

I hate this idea that somehow germans are constantly starved for munitions. Germans have OPTIONS! It is a completely viable option to not buy upgrades and save for abilities and doesn't leave you at any disadvantage to the soviets. The soviets don't have that option and can mostly only use it on abilities, it's not as if they have more munitions.

So what do you suggest? To fight without using rifle nades, lmgs, bundle nades, tellermines, FHT, flamethrowers?

Soviets do not have more muni, but their abilities cost way less, that's the difference.

I would also like to remind you that the incendinary-barrage of the MHT costs 60 mun on a already ammo starved faction and that the MHT has a significantly shorter range than the 120mm. Also you can't just recrew the MHT like the 120mm.

I would also like to remind you that the incendiary-barrage of the MHT costs 45 mun

Be careful with false information because it just makes you look stupid when trying to describe any faction as underpowered.

Also you can't just instantly drive away the 120mm like the MHT.

I'd nerf the 120mm's range and scatter, while adding slightly more accuracy. As of now it's a gamble; sometimes it will miss a stationary MG in plain view of your units 5 times in a row. Other times, it will gib squads as soon as they're in range. I had a match where, I shit you not, my 120mm wiped out 4 squads in as many minute. Including a full health vet 2 PG squad; one shot brought it to 1 man, the next landed right on the retreat path. Needless to say I won, but it was mostly thanks to my luck rather than any skill. I get that it's supposed to be a bigger, badder, less accurate mortar, and I'm all for unit flavor, but it's pretty silly. Also make it so it decrews at 1 man like every other mortar, it's too durable right now.

As for conscripts vs grens, that's a tough one. I'd give them an option to get 2-3 SVT40's when T1 or T2 is built (yes, there's overlap with Penals, but the unit role is not the same), for say 40 ammo. The SVTs would still lose to LMG grens, assuming equal cover, but would win against vanilla ones and provide a stopgap between useless vanilla conscripts and powerful PPShs ones. The PPShs would also merge with the SVTs (much like LMGS + G43s), creating a powerful but fragile unit at pretty high ammo cost. Thoughts?

I'd nerf the 120mm's range and scatter, while adding slightly more accuracy. As of now it's a gamble; sometimes it will miss a stationary MG in plain view of your units 5 times in a row. Other times, it will gib squads as soon as they're in range. I had a match where, I shit you not, my 120mm wiped out 4 squads in as many minute. Including a full health vet 2 PG squad; one shot brought it to 1 man, the next landed right on the retreat path. Needless to say I won, but it was mostly thanks to my luck rather than any skill. I get that it's supposed to be a bigger, badder, less accurate mortar, and I'm all for unit flavor, but it's pretty silly. Also make it so it decrews at 1 man like every other mortar, it's too durable right now.

As for conscripts vs grens, that's a tough one. I'd give them an option to get 2-3 SVT40's when T1 or T2 is built (yes, there's overlap with Penals, but the unit role is not the same), for say 40 ammo. The SVTs would still lose to LMG grens, assuming equal cover, but would win against vanilla ones and provide a stopgap between useless vanilla conscripts and powerful PPShs ones. The PPShs would also merge with the SVTs (much like LMGS + G43s), creating a powerful but fragile unit at pretty high ammo cost. Thoughts?

Nice ideas but I do not think it's going to happen,they didn't add nothing new to the patch,apart from a LMG nerf that doesn't even matter,as examples Penals are still a 360 MP sack of Conscripts with no abilities aka useless and T34-85 is still shooting 8 rounds per minute ...

The MHT, heh, this unit costs 40 fuel and has less range than the 120mm. The last couple of days it seems the soviets have gotten word of this thread and so i am seeing the 120mm in every game. I purposely swapped my commanders to give me the MHT. Using this unit puts the ostheer in a severe disadvantage.

Most the time the 120 is sat near the soviet base, so to get your MHT near it can be very difficult, the incendary barrage can be avoided, and the fuel used means that soviets have armour advantage.

So even if this unit performs well against the 120mm you have to rememeber that it forces the germans into a doctrine and puts them at a disadvantage fuel wise.

Check out that 120mm mortar with double damage sitting next to a Forward HQ in 2v2's. Any and all German infantry, except Osttruppen and maybe Assault Grenadiers, are instantly screwed.

Can you explain this to me? Does forward HQ double damage?

Can you explain this to me? Does forward HQ double damage?

The forward HQ provides a 100% bonus aura to nearby units. The first day after the DLC came out before the free HQ exploit was fixed, I faced a guy on semois who made every building into a FHQ. The thing is the auras would stack so he had penals tearing up my scout cars just by shooting them at distance

I would also like to remind you that the incendiary-barrage of the MHT costs 45 mun

Be careful with false information because it just makes you look stupid when trying to describe any faction as underpowered.

Also you can't just instantly drive away the 120mm like the MHT.

The only important fact in this discussion is that the ability costs munitions, but sorry for not knowing every number in the game by heart.

By the way, I'm not trying to describe a faction as underpowered I'm calling a unit imbalanced. Reading helps.

So even if this unit performs well against the 120mm you have to rememeber that it forces the germans into a doctrine and puts them at a disadvantage fuel wise.

120mm is also doctrinal so cant really counter by saying MHT is.
Also 40 fuel are you been serious that's nothing in general + considering its 50 fuel just to give the conscripts the same abilities grens get from start and soviet teching costs more so its not really alot.
Also I could argue that the 120mm costs alot more MP. They are different units that perform different roles and have different costs there not supposed to face of against one another. People compare units like for like all the time when that's not how it works otherwise we would have two identical factions.

MHT may not have the same range but its easier to move around and less vulnerable and has the flame ability which is amazing for preventing caps, destroying MG/AT gun encampments, buildings and blocking areas to infantry.

Fine, nikolai.

Lets not compare it to MHT then.

That still leaves 120mm as OP lol.

the 120 is way too unreliable and slow to use in the early game, it's only useful later on if your opponent is stalling

The critique - as the 120 mm shells - are wide off the mark imo.

I use 120 mm frequently, but they are never top killers. I bet that is the case with 99% of all other players too because close contact units are much more effective than a low precision big boomer, that fires a volley every 5 seconds and where the target mosten often has left a long time ago before the shell lands.

Fine, nikolai.

Lets not compare it to MHT then.

That still leaves 120mm as OP lol.

Lol one way of putting it what I was trying to get across was that people isolate the units and look at them individually, its easy for stuff to look OP or UP this way. I was trying to say yes the 120mm is powerful but equally there are a lot of powerful German units that crap all over soviet ones in other ways.

If the 120mm was changed I think a range reduction would be tricky as then you may as well not bother and use a more accurate normal mortar, maybe reduce the inbsta gib potential by reducing splash and increasing accuracy and remove precision strike for some other ability. But then again you also have to remember that sometimes the thing is firing 5 times before it even hits a squad so its dps over time is probably not as high as it appears.
Could just leave it the same and make it die really easy if flanked or make it so it cant fire with same range if sitting in base to fix small maps.

Lol one way of putting it what I was trying to get across was that people isolate the units and look at them individually, its easy for stuff to look OP or UP this way. I was trying to say yes the 120mm is powerful but equally there are a lot of powerful German units that crap all over soviet ones in other ways.

If the 120mm was changed I think a range reduction would be tricky as then you may as well not bother and use a more accurate normal mortar, maybe reduce the inbsta gib potential by reducing splash and increasing accuracy and remove precision strike for some other ability. But then again you also have to remember that sometimes the thing is firing 5 times before it even hits a squad so its dps over time is probably not as high as it appears.
Could just leave it the same and make it die really easy if flanked or make it so it cant fire with same range if sitting in base to fix small maps.

Agree on everything.

In my opinion, it's instagib potential is the main concern .

Removing precision strike wouldn't make sense. If you are building 120 it's because you probably went T1-T4 and you don't have access to a regular mortar.

Aren't 120mm and Mortar Half Truck performing quite similar?
Both are deadly and both have ways to destroy weapon platforms.

If you wan't compare 120mm mortar to anything compare it to MHT. I think both units are fine as they are right now.

The 120mm should not be able to escape with 1 guy left.

It doesn't matter if they are your top killers or not. What does matter is the fact that they RNG entire squads off the face of the map.

With almost all Ostheer units being four-man squads it's very easy for them to be lost to one 120mm shell.

I've seen many vetted-4 man squads get wiped out by one shell. A frustration that few Soviet fanboys can understand since they rarely lose entire squads in one shot.

The critique - as the 120 mm shells - are wide off the mark imo.

I use 120 mm frequently, but they are never top killers. I bet that is the case with 99% of all other players too because close contact units are much more effective than a low precision big boomer, that fires a volley every 5 seconds and where the target mosten often has left a long time ago before the shell lands.

This plopped up on my suggested youtube videos today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuK-Meu6KO4

The thing about what happened in this video: The shot could also have gone astray by 5 metres. This shot required neither munitions/veterancy/skill (precision strike, which would have been fine if this were one) nor is it fair for one player to profit this much and the other player to be punished this much from this random event.

If the AoE radius were lower (and other things like cost of the mortar adapted to compensate), the extent of what happened there would have been much less severe.
From a mortar hit hitting this precisely, he sure as hell would have lost the engagement. Thus he'd have lost a little ground. But he wouldn't have lost a whole squad and the LMG upgrade.

He could have retreated, reinforced, used his skill to adapt. Instead, the outcome was a completely binary situation without room for one site to compensate.
And he should have at least had the chance to adapt. To retreat, reinforce, recapture lost territory. Losing time, manpower and territory would have been enough without also costing him a squad and a ton of munitions. Those high impact effects based on pure random chance should not even be a part of this game.