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russian armor

120mm Mortars & Grens Vs Cons

29 Oct 2013, 07:26 AM
#21
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2013, 02:10 AMMcFly


Do I read "over powered German tanks"?? Let me teach you something. Mark Target+SUs


Add button and you have a very very lame/no skill ability that wrecks all German armor.
29 Oct 2013, 08:01 AM
#22
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Can anyone confirm if MHT has the same RoF as 81mm?
Or was it left at the previous RoF?
29 Oct 2013, 09:24 AM
#23
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41



Add button and you have a very very lame/no skill ability that wrecks all German armor.


Mark Target 80 munitions, available on 2 commanders
Button 40 munitions, requires a bad 60 munition weapon upgrade

Countered by abilities such as:

Panzer Tactician Smoke, 15 munitions, available on 4 commanders

So lame.
29 Oct 2013, 10:22 AM
#24
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2013, 05:49 AMTurtle

Although, I wonder if squad wiping can be helped a bit by increasing the mandatory distances between troops in intra-squad AI. I know that Relic said they implemented AI where high vet squads would naturally spread out more. Perhaps it's time to force them to do so even more, even if it means being out of cover?


When the hell did they say that? My Vet3 Panzergrenadiers still bunch up like fish in a barrel when they stop moving.
29 Oct 2013, 13:45 PM
#25
avatar of =][=mmortal

Posts: 215

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2013, 05:49 AMTurtle
Market Target is commander limited, I also don't like the implementation of straight up huge extra damage taken from all sources. Balancing too much around those commanders limits commander choices and makes for a boring meta. I'd be fine with a massive nerf to mark target in exchange for more reasonable and useful tank play. As it stands, mark target use is kind of boring.

While Germans see a problem with various Soviet weapons instantly wiping their squads with a hit, one thing they need to realize is that their basic infantry units are much more capable of wiping out Soviet infantry units with normal gunfire and abilities. Grens with LMGs can quickly kill almost any Soviet squad, even Shocks if you have more than one LMG Grens. PGrens rock most units, and the bundle grenade is wickedly powerful (if a bit inconsistent).

If you want Soviets to have less killing power on their high end support weapons, then you have to trade for more killing power or survivability of infantry.

Although, I wonder if squad wiping can be helped a bit by increasing the mandatory distances between troops in intra-squad AI. I know that Relic said they implemented AI where high vet squads would naturally spread out more. Perhaps it's time to force them to do so even more, even if it means being out of cover?



The difference between someone killing your whole vet 3 pgren squad with a frag grenade or a 120mm lucky hit and shooting a conscript squad to death, is that a con squad can retreat easily. Input lag is to the point that even if you are watching your units pretty much have to be moving as soon as other player throws a grenade to have a hope to dodge it. People talk about input lag; I dont know if its just a technical issue or with delayed input by design, but I really hope its not intentional on Relic's part...
29 Oct 2013, 14:16 PM
#26
avatar of Lichtbringer

Posts: 476

Just play against bots one time, and you notice how freaking fast your units react. Molotovs? No fucking problem.

Therefore I guess its the connection between players.
29 Oct 2013, 17:32 PM
#27
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

Just play against bots one time, and you notice how freaking fast your units react. Molotovs? No fucking problem.

Therefore I guess its the connection between players.


P2P MVGame.
29 Oct 2013, 18:48 PM
#28
avatar of =][=mmortal

Posts: 215

Just used a 120mm and realized the munition cost for precision strike is 45. are you kidding me?

that costs as much as a frag grenade but with no ability to dodge because the shit ranges half the map and its not like you can guess which of your capping squads is about to die even if you somehow hear the launch noise

68 kills on the 120, anytime a pgren or mg stopped for a second boom precision strike, gg
29 Oct 2013, 20:44 PM
#29
avatar of Ztormi

Posts: 249

I don't think 120mms are that amazing.
The precision strike doesn't really seem that accurate. I don't even bother using it. Normal mortar precision strike is way better.

You need to switch gears when 120mm hits the field. Keep moving, decap, ditch the lmgs and spam rifle nades instead. Since the 120mm airtime is so huge and it has a very distinct sound, just back away your capping squads and cap with low value units instead rather than vetted grens and panzer grenadiers.

Sure, you can get lucky with it sometimes but there are so many ways to get your infantry killed in this game.
29 Oct 2013, 21:07 PM
#30
avatar of =][=mmortal

Posts: 215

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2013, 20:44 PMZtormi
I don't think 120mms are that amazing.
The precision strike doesn't really seem that accurate. I don't even bother using it. Normal mortar precision strike is way better.

You need to switch gears when 120mm hits the field. Keep moving, decap, ditch the lmgs and spam rifle nades instead. Since the 120mm airtime is so huge and it has a very distinct sound, just back away your capping squads and cap with low value units instead rather than vetted grens and panzer grenadiers.

Sure, you can get lucky with it sometimes but there are so many ways to get your infantry killed in this game.


I dont find them inaccurate at all, whether or normal or precision strike so I dont know why you say that. Unless the target moves a precisions strike hits spot or close enough

Capping with low value units isnt always possible aka close games. It has a very distinct sound for the soviet player who is hovering around it, not so much for his opponent looking at his own units. So yes I agree germans should drop everything and change how they play because a 1cp unit is on the field B)
29 Oct 2013, 21:10 PM
#31
avatar of Ztormi

Posts: 249


So yes I agree germans should drop everything and change how they play because a 1cp unit is on the field B)


Well I'll have to change my playstyle over tier 0, 0cp Ostheer unit when I play Soviets. Is adapting a problem?

You can lose capping squads to pretty much any unit if you are not paying attention.
29 Oct 2013, 22:07 PM
#32
avatar of Stevie Wunderbar

Posts: 5

120mm on Langres is broken.

Thing is ridiculous. One shots full-health squads at random. 6 man crew makes it invulnerable to counter-mortar.
29 Oct 2013, 22:45 PM
#33
avatar of Madok

Posts: 101

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2013, 20:44 PMZtormi
Since the 120mm airtime is so huge and it has a very distinct sound, just back away your capping squads ....

While the crump of the 120mm is quite distinctive it's there all the time.

There is no unique barrage sound - like the howling nebel of CoH1 - as there is no barrage.
Thanks to its range the 120mm will fire constantly at something - even your own units if you are not careful :)

Personally a have found the 120mm to be anything from useless to the most devastating unit on the field.
If the SU player manages to gain vet for it - things can turn gory very fast.
For me precision strike always managed to severely damage or outright kill any immobile target. Especially PAKs, maybe I was just lucky.



jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2013, 21:10 PMZtormi
Well I'll have to change my playstyle over tier 0, 0cp Ostheer unit when I play Soviets.

Fair point.

The DLC commanders are by and large currently not well balanced (go figure) and the Ostheer Commander just makes no sense: Human wave tactics should be a SU thing, if implemented at all ...
Regardless : Fair point.
29 Oct 2013, 23:28 PM
#34
avatar of N7| The Shepard

Posts: 11

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2013, 16:08 PMtokarev
Sure, sure... Lets nerf poor soviets even more...

You guys wanna talk about over powered German tanks???


Ha Ha Ha sorry... you talk about the panzer 4 that misses half of shots and needs 4 hits to kill a t34, and that can't ram and unable tigers like they do?

Ah or OP soviet artillery that instantly kills tigers and elephants sometimes :)
or 120 mm mortars, which one shot german troops with an incredible accuracy ??

Did u even experience a match being german vs those lame build orders?

I only see the same lame tacs those days. Oh wait! Why people don't use the kv8 anymore??? Ah it has been balanced my bad...

In order to counter everything, just build shock troopers, su and 120 mms and u can own all t1, t2 and t3 german stuff => Great skills needed wow

The day the german could aim better than farmers and the tiger will shoot further than a mg, I will say it is balanced

Thanks Relic to consider this, make your game playable
29 Oct 2013, 23:39 PM
#35
avatar of MetaStable14

Posts: 95

Just had 48 kills with a 120 in a 27 minute 2v2 XD

It is pretty strong most of the time. As far as not wanting capping units dead, just shift click them in a circle if they are in range of a 120.

I don't find that it consistently wipes squads. However I do find that it is very good at finishing wounded squads. If you spend 45 munitions - 1+ minute of munitions - you probably should have a good chance of killing a couple soldiers. Maybe some form of audio alert like the whistle needs to be added so you know that you should retreat/move things like wounded mg42's or paks that are the primary target for these single shots.

Edit: Not to mention Ostheer do have a mobile doctrinal mortar unit that can rain flames on capping units and constantly force the 120mm around.
30 Oct 2013, 04:13 AM
#36
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

Just had 48 kills with a 120 in a 27 minute 2v2 XD

It is pretty strong most of the time. As far as not wanting capping units dead, just shift click them in a circle if they are in range of a 120.

I don't find that it consistently wipes squads. However I do find that it is very good at finishing wounded squads. If you spend 45 munitions - 1+ minute of munitions - you probably should have a good chance of killing a couple soldiers. Maybe some form of audio alert like the whistle needs to be added so you know that you should retreat/move things like wounded mg42's or paks that are the primary target for these single shots.

Edit: Not to mention Ostheer do have a mobile doctrinal mortar unit that can rain flames on capping units and constantly force the 120mm around.


Everyone seems to be forgetting that the Precision Strike is best used against enemy mortar teams as a counter-barrage ability to completely deny German forces of any indirect fire until Tier 4 Panzerwerfers (minus the doctrinal Mortar Halftrack). In fact, it performs this role much better than the actual (and very useless) Counter Barrage ability on veteran German mortar teams.
30 Oct 2013, 11:07 AM
#37
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

Just had 48 kills with a 120 in a 27 minute 2v2 XD

It is pretty strong most of the time. As far as not wanting capping units dead, just shift click them in a circle if they are in range of a 120.

I don't find that it consistently wipes squads. However I do find that it is very good at finishing wounded squads. If you spend 45 munitions - 1+ minute of munitions - you probably should have a good chance of killing a couple soldiers. Maybe some form of audio alert like the whistle needs to be added so you know that you should retreat/move things like wounded mg42's or paks that are the primary target for these single shots.

Edit: Not to mention Ostheer do have a mobile doctrinal mortar unit that can rain flames on capping units and constantly force the 120mm around.


On some maps pretty much every inf-squad that's not in your base is within range of the 120mm and shift-clicking is extremely micro intensive with little to no reward, because avoiding 120mm squadwipes is just a god damn lottery.

I would also like to remind you that the incendinary-barrage of the MHT costs 60 mun on a already ammo starved faction and that the MHT has a significantly shorter range than the 120mm. Also you can't just recrew the MHT like the 120mm.

30 Oct 2013, 13:57 PM
#38
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561


I would also like to remind you that the incendinary-barrage of the MHT costs 60 mun on a already ammo starved faction and that the MHT has a significantly shorter range than the 120mm. Also you can't just recrew the MHT like the 120mm.


I hate this idea that somehow germans are constantly starved for munitions. Germans have OPTIONS! It is a completely viable option to not buy upgrades and save for abilities and doesn't leave you at any disadvantage to the soviets. The soviets don't have that option and can mostly only use it on abilities, it's not as if they have more munitions.
30 Oct 2013, 14:23 PM
#39
avatar of MetaStable14

Posts: 95



Everyone seems to be forgetting that the Precision Strike is best used against enemy mortar teams as a counter-barrage ability to completely deny German forces of any indirect fire until Tier 4 Panzerwerfers (minus the doctrinal Mortar Halftrack). In fact, it performs this role much better than the actual (and very useless) Counter Barrage ability on veteran German mortar teams.


You're right, I knew I was forgetting one unit.

If a 240mp mortar could consistently beat the 120mm (360mp) using counter barrage there would be no point in building the 120. As of right now if I am using precision strike to have the chance to kill 0-4 members of the Ostheer mortar squad I am trading about a minute or more of munitions for slightly less than a minute of manpower - not necessarily a good or bad trade.
30 Oct 2013, 14:32 PM
#40
avatar of MetaStable14

Posts: 95



On some maps pretty much every inf-squad that's not in your base is within range of the 120mm and shift-clicking is extremely micro intensive with little to no reward, because avoiding 120mm squadwipes is just a god damn lottery.

I would also like to remind you that the incendinary-barrage of the MHT costs 60 mun on a already ammo starved faction and that the MHT has a significantly shorter range than the 120mm. Also you can't just recrew the MHT like the 120mm.



I haven't found shift clicking to overly micro intensive at all. In fact I shift click my squads around my base while they are reinforcing so they automatically head where I need them when they are done reinforcing. ~1 lap around the base for ~3 squad members. It also seems to work well for dodging mortar fire while capping which is why I recommended it. If it's too much for you then that is your problem I guess.

You don't have to use the flame barrage, but the MHT can apply pressure to the 120 and keep it moving. The 120 is only really effective if it can remain static for periods of time. With the high mobility of the MHT it can be constantly on the move harassing the 120 and forcing it to move. Or at least I haven't had much luck using the 120 to fire back on a MHT if the MHT got the first couple shots off. Odds are the MHT will land the first hit if it gets to fire the first couple rounds. I'd have to check stats later but I don't think there are huge discrepancies between their accuracy and damage.
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