Panzerfusiliers Need Adjustments

I added a point to the medics at the same time you wrote the post. It's now included in the original post.

OKW can come by with med crate drops if they really want to rush their P4 and still get healing. USF can't.
The price correction is perfectly fine. The OKW P4 is priced according to its performance and is one of the most popular mediums due to it's very high armor (Allied mediums pen with about 15% less chance compared to OST P4).
You can't say that OKW pays "extra" for their tank if they also get a better tank for that. If we assume that medium tanks are mostly balanced against each other, we need to correct for the price difference.

IS were overperforming, no doubt, but not as 4 man squads. They get a 10 RA nerf when out of cover, they get the same stats as previously. At the early mid game, OKW usually has StG Volks. 4 man Tommies have the same effective health pool as 5 man Volks (pre patch), but Volks have higher DPS up to range 26 and better DPS drop on model loss. So UKF must do something against OKW in the mid to early game in order to keep pace with the infantry engagements.

that's bullshit if so make them cost that, do we do the same for stug and jackson ? for Churchill , comet ?

and why not correct downwards ? to soviet lvl ?

255(su)/255(usf)/215(ukf)/275(okw) (0/-20/-20/-50) basically making them cost like t 34 (Sherman 110 fu, cromwell 110 fuel, okw p4 140 fuel)

now we see that UKF even when paying for both nades and weapon still pay less that okw (bolster is not needed)and can even get bolster and stay even

USF pays 5 more fuel for better weapons and smoke nades (plus they come earlier if u want)

Soviet can get both cons upgrades and lv

this will not change that okw p4 will come later tho

and if we got to full upgraded i still think okw pays more as they pay 60 more fuel for mech and 15 the repair squad (ukf is 15 + 50 for aec/bofors and hammer/Alvin, nothing for soviet and USF 55 fuel for other officer)

this does not take in account the buff to fuel in the prview tho (5 more fuel) that came with some nasty nerf everywhere else


on what patch they deal less damage at range 26 ? volks only deal more damage from range 11 or closer vs IS when they have cover bonus

hannibal i really think u got some stats wrong (tank price and IS dps) recheck

So cons > grens ? because that is excatly the case with 2 model difference.

Well, contrary to out of the gate cons, PFs actually have DPS while cons just shoot cork guns until upgraded

AI specialist with AT satchel and double ptrs ???

Yes, just like shreck PGs are AI specialists.

Well, contrary to out of the gate cons, PFs actually have DPS while cons just shoot cork guns until upgraded

Do they ? Did you look at the tests ? Cons are doing similar to Pfusi.

Well, contrary to out of the gate cons, PFs actually have DPS while cons just shoot cork guns until upgraded

lol i posted the test with img, they beat pfusi


even Hannibal did some test here

Okay, so I did some testing:
PF vs Cons, all tested in at least triplicates if not stated otherwise, vet 0, no cover
range 0-10: Cons win clearly (usually 30% health left)
range 20: Cons win reliably (they won all fights, but one barely and the rest much closer)
range 30: Cons won 1/6 fights, PF won 2 reliably, 3 clearly. This happened even though I allowed Cons to model snipe PF by bad PF positioning in the first three runs

did u forget how to read

You compare core units with their outer faction counterparts to try and find balance, and doctrinal units to what they are supposed to replace if their job is to replace them and it gives y ou the best look at what the faction needs as a power level

You are comparing to a unit that is overperforming and trying to make another unit competitive against that...

>u can't compare to other faction mainline

>u can't compare to volks



well i guess i have to compare them to starcraft marines

the fan boys request really have become unreasonable, first they decide what u are allowed to compare or not, then they stop u form comparing all together immagine if people said u can't compare volks to rifle and had to compare them to obers

Dude, nobody even understands what you're trying to say anymore.

People tell you not to compare as much with other faction mainlines because they aren't an option for the OKW player to build, and tell you not to compare their supposed underperformance with Volks because everyome and their mother agrees Volks are an overperforming unit.

You can still compare stats and roles, sure, it just doesn't mean what you want it to. Instead, most of the focus people have been trying to demonstrate to you is on how Pfussies become a more effective unit than Volks in the long run in either the AT or AI role through upgrades and vet. This is and has been the designed tradeoff since their change; inferior performance to volks, particularly considering their greater price, is a given, even without the Volks balance issues.

The alternatives I can see are solidifying Pfussie capability at long range and nerfing short, or, aye, increasing damage further through Gren rifles but also increasing price and probably delaying their production, maybe through tech. Putting them in the battlegroup HQ is also a thought.

Dude, nobody even understands what you're trying to say anymore.

People tell you not to compare as much with other faction mainlines because they aren't an option for the OKW player to build, and tell you not to compare their supposed underperformance with Volks because everyome and their mother agrees Volks are an overperforming unit.

You can still compare stats and roles, sure, it just doesn't mean what you want it to.

i guess it means what u want, cause i can't compare with other main lines cause "they are doctrinal" this argument is not used with othr doc inf but whatever, but can't compare to volks cause "volks are opopi !1!!11!112"

can i ask u what should i compare to ?

i guess it means what u want, cause i can't compare with other main lines cause "they are doctrinal" this argument is not used with othr doc inf but whatever, but can't compare to volks cause "volks are opopi !1!!11!112"

can i ask u what should i compare to ?

I dont know of any unit directly comparable. Maybe recon support paratroopers since they also come with basically nothing (though they are better than RM overall) and branch out to hard AI/AT roles via techless upgrades. The problem is they're also CP3 and 360mp 80mun, and their upgrades are 120mun, 100mun respectively.

What do you want this unit to be? It has already been established they become better than volks overall, as designed. You seem to want them to be better from the start or much cheaper, but I would assume you can see how this could itself be a problem given the existing potency of their upgrades once purchased.

I've already offered some changes that make them more effective in their sweet spot and less effective elsewhere. But even I still wonder if that might be a bit much in the end.

I dont know of any unit directly comparable. Maybe recon support paratroopers since they also come with basically nothing (though they are better than RM overall) and branch out to hard AI/AT roles via techless upgrades. The problem is they're also CP3 and 360mp 80mun, and their upgrades are 120mun, 100mun respectively.

What do you want this unit to be? It has already been established they become better than volks overall, as designed. You seem to want them to be better from the start or much cheaper, but I would assume you can see how this could itself be a problem given the existing potency of their upgrades once purchased.

I've already offered some changes that make them more effective in their sweet spot and less effective elsewhere. But even I still wonder if that might be a bit much in the end.

i actually posted my ideas already and they were pretty similar to ur just scroll back a bit
The one I prefer the most is giving stv to them, as they would work with g43 (both close-mid range weapons) and lose a tiny bit of fat dps , while being 5 men instead of 6 like penals

>u can't compare to other faction mainline

>u can't compare to volks



well i guess i have to compare them to starcraft marines

the fan boys request really have become unreasonable, first they decide what u are allowed to compare or not, then they stop u form comparing all together immagine if people said u can't compare volks to rifle and had to compare them to obers

sorry if i was unclear, the over performing unit in the vague was volks, i thought i cleared that up in the follow up

you compare core units against core units and compare doctrinal units against what they are trying to replace

UNDER THE CONDITION THAT THE CORE UNITS ARE BALANCED when you look at a doctrinal unit trying to make it attractive you compare and contrast against the core unit.

you compare volks and rifles to make sure they are balanced, faction balance relies on this (or you will need to have an alternative route like the soviet that completely disregards the problem infantry all together)

you compare volks and fussies to see if fussies are woth replacing volks due to overlap in role. it doesnt matter how they stack up against rifles if they bring a lot to the table that volks cant. if volks lacked a snare and the ability to build sandbags fussies would have a role. you would also need volks of course, but how both those squads interact is what is important when looking at doctrinal units.

and to repeat, as long as volks are *ahem* so gosh darn independent the ONLY way for an "alternative mainline" to work is for them to be OP otherwise its simply not worth picking a commander for or building over volks. there needs to be something that volks dont have and unless you lower fussies to 250 to sort of pretend that MASSIVE 40mp over the course of match nerf that volks received i dont see them in their current design of competeing with volks as a viable design

You are comparing to a unit that is overperforming and trying to make another unit competitive against that...

Fussies will either be OP for cost or UP compared to volks. While volks performance is as it is (by that I mean a no Brainer unit that can do everything leaving no real room for any other unit to compete)

I say again, this is a volks problem more than it is a fussi problem and I'm not sure a 10mp increase is going to fix thr volume of problems that volks in their current state create with balance.

Volks arent op. They trade a fast powerspike through stg with a weaker scaling. Sure they are cost efficient but not op. The thing that made them so strong was the high mp available to okw at the start and their cheap cost. They were easy to spam and let okw snowball through the early game. That gets corrected in this balance patch already. No need to punish underperforming pfs even further. Just make them like penals. Higher cost, better performance.

Volks arent op.

Volks aren't op to the point where they are getting price increase.
That's literal definition of op for the cost.

Volks aren't op to the point where they are getting price increase.
That's literal definition of op for the cost.

Sure they were a little bit too cheap. Thats why they cost 10 mp more. The problem was the starting mp. They were fielded too fast. Now both things got adressed and volks areund balanced. End of story. Meanwhile pfs cost more and perform worse.

Volks arent op. They trade a fast powerspike through stg with a weaker scaling. Sure they are cost efficient but not op. The thing that made them so strong was the high mp available to okw at the start and their cheap cost. They were easy to spam and let okw snowball through the early game. That gets corrected in this balance patch already. No need to punish underperforming pfs even further. Just make them like penals. Higher cost, better performance.

Penals themselves arnt even balanced but they are there because Soviet DON'T have non doc infantry capable of doing anything. They are what are keeping the faction afloat so making fussies like penals without the holes that have made penals as they are a necessity will be broken. That makes them penals backed by an mg, backed by mainline infantry that can actually fight. Penals that don't cost 160mp just to unlock. Penals without any of the sacrifice that "justifies" the Power of the penals

Penals themselves arnt even balanced but they are there because Soviet DON'T have non doc infantry capable of doing anything. They are what are keeping the faction afloat so making fussies like penals without the holes that have made penals as they are a necessity will be broken. That makes them penals backed by an mg, backed by mainline infantry that can actually fight. Penals that don't cost 160mp just to unlock. Penals without any of the sacrifice that "justifies" the Power of the penals

And you forgot to mention a sliiiiight difference in power between engineers of both factions.

Or, with volk spam not being so easy to pull off, players will limit their volks in early game and save for PFs, who have much better performance from the moment you get that first 90 muni. Kubel changes might also make it more appealing as it'll have less downtime and it already gets shared vet to perform better and faster, helping to inflict some bleed without taking any in return.

You see, you and others are looking at PFs like upgrades were completely optional choice for them, well, its not, they are mainline version of obers, allowed to come out earlier, but not living up to the cost without the upgrade.

You'll lower their cost, you'll see nothing but PFs due to their superior scaling over volks(both vet and upgrades).

They aren't penals who don't get any upgrades and have to perform up to the cost at all times and they already trade almost equally with rifles at long range.

You weren't sleeping in a cave during last patch, you're well aware why they cost as much as they do and why they perform as they are. In case you forgot about that, I've quoted reasoning in one of the earlier posts in response to stug.

wow, 3 worse g43 and 1 more man = to ober lmg ?

para exist, do we see people only building para after 3 cp instead of rifles ?

one of ur reasoning was they are much better than cons out of the gate, that was proven wrong, but u just ignored it as always

Oh oh, someone can't tell analogical mechanics from equal performance apart!

Well, contrary to out of the gate cons, PFs actually have DPS while cons just shoot cork guns until upgraded

Oh oh, someone can't tell analogical mechanics from equal performance apart!

well i guess u back paddle now