OKW September patch discussion

1. 20 range is out of the question... that would make the rak OP...

Now i would prefer a pak 38 with USF AT gun stats and TWP/APCR/insert ability here

2. Yes severity of bleed is important... conscripts and grens continue to bleed harder than volks do since volks are still far more cost efficient than grens and cons for some reason

3. There is actually... and the winrates show it... WFA winrates are higher than EFA... why you ask?

A. WFA gets free shit with tech...

OKW gets a building with healing/mechanics/a gun

USF gets a free squad

UKF gets extra howies


Sov and wehr dont get freebies with tech...

B. WFA gets powerful bullrush builds... EFA only has the penal

C. EFA has to build tech buildings further saturating their engineer role...

D. WFA gets powerful infantry upgrades or powerful elite infantry

Oberblob

Double barblob

Double brenblob

The LMGblob and the penal/7man blob are all displaced by WFA counterparts

1.- It actually would not be a problem giving Raketenwerfer nearly the same range as most other AT guns now since the Camo is actually being totally nerfed to the state it must be completely stationary.

Can not move or even rotate otherwise it will completely deactivate camo.

Range increase so that it may be more of a viable support weapon.


I actually do also like your idea about inserting instead a pak 38 with USF AT gun stats and TWP/APCR/insert ability here.

I think the changes on the Raketenwerfer currently only improves survivability but really the other changes are not going to really help improve its AT capabilities.


2.- I do not see how Volks price should set higher than at the price it is going to be set, at 260.

It is really the utility they have that makes them good. Combat wise, yes slightly better than some mainlines but not any better than Tommies nor Riflemen.

I think if Volks are to be changed a little, in this way slightly nerfed. They should replace or switch items between the units.

Now Volks have
- Flamenade (it is pretty unique to have, I do not removing it for some regular nade would be a nice idea, just saying)
- Faust (hard to decide but with what it currently has
- Sandbags (some Axis unit should have this by default)

What would make sense if Sturmpio got the Panzerfaust instead.

It would limits OKW power to counter light vehicles easier as it would be only Sturmpio that would be able to snare vehicles.

Now imagine Volks just having now
- Flamenade and Sandbags only

This would totally nerf their so called cost-efficiency.

It think it would be designed like this, similar to how the units in UKF function. Sappers get the snare while the mainline dont.

Timing and the rate of acquiring the units with snares are more difficult. It would be better this way.

3.- Some truth but I do not entirely agree.

Osteehr is in a far better spot than it used to be, with all the changes.

SU which has been in a good spot but some elements have not such as the Maxim and Conscripts which both only need changing in order to improve the gameplay.

It is just WFA being more unique since they are DLC content. Maybe that is why they get more special treatment. Just assuming since it is usually the case.

1.- It actually would not be a problem giving Raketenwerfer nearly the same range as most other AT guns now since the Camo is actually being totally nerfed to the state it must be completely stationary.

Can not move or even rotate otherwise it will completely deactivate camo.

Range increase so that it may be more of a viable support weapon.


I actually do also like your idea about inserting instead a pak 38 with USF AT gun stats and TWP/APCR/insert ability here.

I think the changes on the Raketenwerfer currently only improves survivability but really the other changes are not going to really help improve its AT capabilities.

what i hate about the rak is that its rocket tends to collide more with the environment as opposed to targets... just make it a USF AT gun clone and be done with it

2.- I do not see how Volks price should set higher than at the price it is going to be set, at 260.

It is really the utility they have that makes them good. Combat wise, yes slightly better than some mainlines but not any better than Tommies nor Riflemen.

I think if Volks are to be changed a little, in this way slightly nerfed. They should replace or switch items between the units.

Now Volks have
- Flamenade (it is pretty unique to have, I do not removing it for some regular nade would be a nice idea, just saying)
- Faust (hard to decide but with what it currently has
- Sandbags (some Axis unit should have this by default)

What would make sense if Sturmpio got the Panzerfaust instead.

It would limits OKW power to counter light vehicles easier as it would be only Sturmpio that would be able to snare vehicles.

Now imagine Volks just having now
- Flamenade and Sandbags only

This would totally nerf their so called cost-efficiency.

It think it would be designed like this, similar to how the units in UKF function. Sappers get the snare while the mainline dont.

Timing and the rate of acquiring the units with snares are more difficult. It would be better this way.

no you misunderstood my statement...

volks REINFORCE need to be changed aswell to 26mp per model... the current cost of 260mp is completely appropriate for volksgrenadiers...however reinforce costs werent adjusted to reflect that... soo changing it to 26mp per model actually keeps the proportions with its new cost of 260mp

to illustrate
old volks
250mp per squad
25mp per model
125 to reinforce 5 men
reinforce cost 50% of original cost (125/250)

new volks
260mp
25mp per model
125mp to reinforce 5 men
reinforce cost 48.08% of original cost (125/260)

proposed changes
260mp
26mp per model
130mp to reinforce 5 man
reinforce cost 50% of original cost (130/260)

3.- Some truth but I do not entirely agree.

Osteehr is in a far better spot than it used to be, with all the changes.

SU which has been in a good spot but some elements have not such as the Maxim and Conscripts which both only need changing in order to improve the gameplay.

It is just WFA being more unique since they are DLC content. Maybe that is why they get more special treatment. Just assuming since it is usually the case.

in this case that "uniqueness" made it so that WFA factions have overall higher winrates than EFA factions

1 problem witch Changing reinforces cost is recrewing, all faction have cheap squad to re crew weapons , okw have volks only and they already cost 25 mo to reinforce

Would rather see a nerf to their mind and close performance

I would like to suggest:

1. Medic area at vet 3 for sturmofficer
2. Rakketenwerfer will have 5 men for all factions (for soviets as well).
3. reduce the price of panzerfuzz to 260 MP becouse you have to pay for extra 1 model when you get g43 upgrade.

volks REINFORCE need to be changed aswell to 26mp per model... the current cost of 260mp is completely appropriate for volksgrenadiers...however reinforce costs werent adjusted to reflect that... soo changing it to 26mp per model actually keeps the proportions with its new cost of 260mp

Buffs or nerfs to the reinforce cost or callin cost of a unit do not need simultaneous proportional changes. For example, the reinforce cost of infantry sections was reduced but the callin cost remained the same.

I am not convinced volks need a larger nerf. They are more cost effective then grens but that is because grens have an extremely expensive reinforce cast-on par or greater than many elite infantry(could be reduced to 28 imo).
They are more cost effective than cons but only with the caveat that cons lack upgrades or lack veterancy-otherwise I might even give the advantage to cons.

I think some misconceptions about volks current power is due the STG upgrade which is a buff to their firepower but nothing like giving them a couple of pgren stgs or fg42s. It's on a level similar to gren G43s.

Barring the passive heal, volks vet leaves a bit to be desired (like penals) which hurts their scaling though not as badly as penals. This is fine though as that's the niche the unit(volks) was designed for.

Buffs or nerfs to the reinforce cost or callin cost of a unit do not need simultaneous proportional changes. For example, the reinforce cost of infantry sections was reduced but the callin cost remained the same.

I am not convinced volks need a larger nerf. They are more cost effective then grens but that is because grens have an extremely expensive reinforce cast-on par or greater than many elite infantry(could be reduced to 28 imo).
They are more cost effective than cons but only with the caveat that cons lack upgrades or lack veterancy-otherwise I might even give the advantage to cons.

let me hold you there for a second

grenadiers have the exact same reinforce cost as conscripts... dont believe me?

conscripts
240mp
20mp per model
6 models
6x20 = 120mp to reinforce
reinforce cost is 50% of the original squad cost (120/240)

grenadiers
20mp per model
4 models
4x30 = 120mp to reinforce
reinforce cost is 50% of the original squad cost (120/240)

I think a lot of the misconception about volks current power is the STG upgrade which is a buff to their firepower but nothing like giving them a couple of pgren stgs or fg42s. It's on a level similar to gren G43s.

Barring the passive heal, volks vet leaves a bit to be desired (like penals) which hurts their scaling though not as badly as penals. This is fine though as that's the niche the unit(volks) was designed for.

no... ive already conducted tests on that in another thread
https://www.coh2.org/topic/94987/riflemen-need-a-buff-or-volks-need-a-nerf

unupgraded volksgrenadiers overperform for their cost of 250mp.... 260mp/26mp reinforce was the logical conclusion of the tests i performed...

1 problem witch Changing reinforces cost is recrewing, all faction have cheap squad to re crew weapons , okw have volks only and they already cost 25 mo to reinforce

Would rather see a nerf to their mind and close performance

why not rework sturmpioneers to be less bullrushy and more engineery so that it can fill the cheap recrewing niche?

but id guess a nerf to volks to 240 + performance changes to put em on par with cons/grens could work... but i honestly prefer the former...

The mod team won’t rework sturm as u can see

what i hate about the rak is that its rocket tends to collide more with the environment as opposed to targets... just make it a USF AT gun clone and be done with it

That is what I do not like about it now, missing and hitting terrain also. Especially when it can not make a follow up sometimes, like placing a second shot on the enemy vehicle which it seldom does.

Range needs to be improved further now that camo is near to being completely not as useful.

I do still like your idea for making it alike USF AT gun instead.

At least an AT gun in the Axis faction that would some trouble like the Allies have against Heavier tanks. Would be an interesting feature to add.

no you misunderstood my statement...

volks REINFORCE need to be changed aswell to 26mp per model... the current cost of 260mp is completely appropriate for volksgrenadiers...however reinforce costs werent adjusted to reflect that... soo changing it to 26mp per model actually keeps the proportions with its new cost of 260mp

to illustrate
old volks
250mp per squad
25mp per model
125 to reinforce 5 men
reinforce cost 50% of original cost (125/250)

new volks
260mp
25mp per model
125mp to reinforce 5 men
reinforce cost 48.08% of original cost (125/260)

proposed changes
260mp
26mp per model
130mp to reinforce 5 man
reinforce cost 50% of original cost (130/260)

I see now.

Though I do not see how that would make a huge difference when it is just a mini cost increase per reinforce.

The reinforce increase/difference would be like +1.04% if you take 26/25.

It do not see how that would change much since it is just a minor percentage. It might make a difference anyway.

I think what would be a bigger change is what I have suggested before.

Switching the Panzerfaust to Sturmpio is a far better way at the dampening the Volks cost-efficiency.

Make it similar to UKF units functions.

Mainline having no snares (AT nades) while sappers/engineers have the snares.

in this case that "uniqueness" made it so that WFA factions have overall higher winrates than EFA factions

If I am not mistaken, it is the SU that had mostly the higher winrates across all factions overall. Not sure about how it performs now but I still think it is on top.

In terms of uniqueness. WFA does get certain better qualities, additions and specialties.

That is what I do not like about it now, missing and hitting terrain also. Especially when it can not make a follow up sometimes, like placing a second shot on the enemy vehicle which it seldom does.

Range needs to be improved further now that camo is near to being completely not as useful.

I do still like your idea for making it alike USF AT gun instead.

At least an AT gun in the Axis faction that would some trouble like the Allies have against Heavier tanks. Would be an interesting feature to add.

a 60 range rak may be fine with the current stats... but i still prefer the pak 38 idea

I see now.

Though I do not see how that would make a huge difference when it is just a mini cost increase per reinforce.

The reinforce increase/difference would be like +1.04% if you take 26/25.

It do not see how that would change much since it is just a minor percentage.

it may be minor but it would still make it more efficient than cons/grens... this is unacceptable

I think what would be a bigger change is what I have suggested before.

Switching the Panzerfaust to Sturmpio is a far better way at the dampening the Volks cost-efficiency.

Make it similar to UKF units functions.

Mainline having no snares (AT nades) while sappers/engineers have the snares.

this may create the OKW counterpart of the UKF sapper piatblob... no thanks m8... i want that cancer to disappear not to proliferate...

If I am not mistaken, it is the SU that had mostly the higher winrates across all factions overall. Not sure about how it performs now but I still think it is on top.

In terms of uniqueness. WFA does get certain better qualities, additions and specialties.

in tournaments yes... where everyone abuses guards and penals... both are units that need a tone down... overall however the highest winrate belongs to USF followed by UKF then OKW SOV and OST respectively

let me hold you there for a second

grenadiers have the exact same reinforce cost as conscripts... dont believe me?

conscripts
240mp
20mp per model
6 models
6x20 = 120mp to reinforce
reinforce cost is 50% of the original squad cost (120/240)

grenadiers
20mp per model
4 models
4x30 = 120mp to reinforce
reinforce cost is 50% of the original squad cost (120/240)



no... ive already conducted tests on that in another thread
https://www.coh2.org/topic/94987/riflemen-need-a-buff-or-volks-need-a-nerf

unupgraded volksgrenadiers overperform for their cost of 250mp.... 260mp/26mp reinforce was the logical conclusion of the tests i performed...

I realize that proportionally the cost of reinforcement to initial callin cost is the same for grenadiers and conscripts if you want to reinforce a full squad (which is impossible). However, losing 2 models to a grenade is 60 mp for grens while losing 2 models to a grenade is only 2 for cons. On top of that cons at vet 3 only have a 1% greater recieved accuracy to grens so at that point you cant even cited model durability as an advantage which offsets reinforce cost.
When people talk about reinforce costs they generally are referring to the cost of reinforcing a single model, not reinforcing an entire squad.


As for your tests - first I already addressed that cons are less cost efficient only with the caveat they lack vet or upgrades because both will make cons more cost effective than volks.
For grens, the lmg42 is the third best lmg in the game and is available for grens for good reason- just like with cons their upgrades and/or vet is what allows them to scale. Lmg42 grens will beat the stuffing out of stg volks at long range-and that is really the only range they shine at but they do it well, they will still manage to trade well all the way into the mid range with stg volks.
Edit: forgot commando brens which never got nerfed are also superior to lmg42 which does put it at third behind it and the ober lmg34.


So no I dont think volks need further nerfing, they already scale worse than all the mainline infantry excluding penals. Increasing their reinforce cost would make that worse.

it may be minor but it would still make it more efficient than cons/grens... this is unacceptable

this may create the OKW counterpart of the UKF sapper piatblob... no thanks m8... i want that cancer to disappear not to proliferate...

It wont be that bad an idea.

Piat blob is very costy you know although it can be annoying. It can be countered if you know which to use in which faction.

It wont hurt at all if Sturmpio gets the Panzerfaust, at least they become finally a proper AT unit when they can too acquire on top with 1 limited Panzerschreck. It would be balanced.

It would most definitely be costy.

Since other Allied factions all have snares with AT bazookas/piats and PTRS.

It would be fair for OKW to at least have that when they currently have nothing for mobile AT unit.
___


Not only that, it is also timing that plays a role in early gameplay. Nerfing their AT snares across Volks, on the mass majority would directly influence their impact on early gameplay effectiveness in trade for later on.

It is really a fair concept.

Although it is not a nice feature but a feature which we all have to live with.

It would be fair.

I realize that proportionally the cost of reinforcement to initial callin cost is the same for grenadiers and conscripts. However, losing 2 models to a grenade is 60 mp for grens while losing 2 models to a grenade is only 2 for cons. On top of that cons at vet 3 only have a 1% greater recieved accuracy to grens so at that point you cant even cited model durability as an advantage which offsets reinforce cost.

not when you factor in recieved accuracy... grenadiers have far superior RA to conscripts... and so long as they arent used offensively... get far less bleed than conscripts... of course they sacrifice this when on the offensive but grenadiers are intended to be a defensive tool to the more offensive oriented conscript...

likewise in grenadier vs conscript duel the conscript is actually more likely to bleed models than the grenadiers... simply due to the higher RA... even if the conscript does eventually put itself in an advantageous position... say i oorah into medium/close range into cover... the conscript is still more likely to bleed models than the gren by virtue of RA and DPS on the part of the grenadier squad... even if the conscript does put itself on an winning engagement...

the only real point where those numbers start to become irrelevant is the lategame where tanks and artillery overtake small arms fire... in that case grenadiers do start to bleed quite alot... but thats the price paid for the lower earlygame bleed of grens

As for your tests - first I already addressed that cons are less cost efficient only with the caveat they lack vet or upgrades because both will make cons more cost effective than volks.

volks have vet and upgrades aswell... conscripts may get better vet... but lets not forget that soviet conscript builds struggle against volks.... to the point that almost no tournament player even opts to use them against volks...

why you ask?

because theyre simply not competitive

ohh mind you the volk STG actually improves DPS at all ranges... its a no brainer upgrade without any compromise whatsoever...

For grens, the lmg42 is the second best lmg in the game and is available for grens for good reason- just like with cons their upgrades and/or vet is what allows them to scale. Lmg42 grens will beat the stuffing out of stg volks at long range-and that is really the only range they shine at but they do it well.

LMG42 grens have to be static in order to deal damage... this leaves you open to alot of different strategies in order to deal with this... its the sole reason why G43 grens are popular in high level games bc the G43 fires on the move allowing continuous DPS despite the strategy in use...

for example if i see an LMG grenblob i immediately find an SU-76 a katy a churchill a KV-8 or any other AOE damage tool to punish the static grens or force them to keep moving in order to nullify their DPS... volks will have increased DPS in all situations...

So no I dont think volks need further nerfing, they already scale worse than all the mainline infantry excluding penals. Increasing their reinforce cost would make that worse.

conscripts and grens disagree... in fact conscripts and grens are soo bad compared to the current volks that claiming "260mp/26 reinforce makes them bad" is a biased sentiment

He said they have worse scaling, that’s undeniably true look at vet and upgrades

then why arent conscripts used in tournaments vs OKW? perhaps it has something to do with the viability of the conscript vs OKW?

Not sure, as the build animation ends with the models crewing the gun. But we will look into ways of making it obvious that the Panzer Authorization (and the flak gun activation) hasn't been upgraded yet.

I have a question about the new Panzer Authorization upgrade.

In the original plan, it was a 60/60 split and the first half contained Obersoldaten and the Jagdpanzer IV.

What changed the team's mind? I thought having the Jagdpanzer IV in the first half was the goal of the split.



Secondly, did you consider making the Raketenwerfer auto-cloak when stationary? The toggle implementation works, but it's a QoL nightmare as the cloak command can't be shift-queued.

I have a question about the new Panzer Authorization upgrade.

In the original plan, it was a 60/60 split and the first half contained Obersoldaten and the Jagdpanzer IV.

What changed the team's mind? I thought having the Jagdpanzer IV in the first half was the goal of the split.



Secondly, did you consider making the Raketenwerfer auto-cloak when stationary? The toggle implementation works, but it's a QoL nightmare as the cloak command can't be shift-queued.

or give it a 90% move speed debuff

or give it a 90% move speed debuff

That'd wouldn't solve the problem.

The Raketenwerfer's current design intent is you move it to an ambush location, cloak it, and wait for a vehicle to drive into its arc.

However, you can't shift queue that order. If you issue a move order and a cloak order, it'll cloak at the start. The only way to make it serve its intended function is to move it decloaked, wait for it to get there, and cloak it.

It works, but it's fiddly and irritating. There's a reason nobody ever uses it this way in live.


If you have it automatically cloak when stationary and out of combat (like Ambush Camouflage) then you can issue the order and it'll roll over and cloak itself.

There's a slight issue where a friendly tank running over your Rak crew will reveal it for a moment, but I think that's a small price to pay for the vast QoL improvement of automatic cloakinbg.