I mentioned PzGrens, not Volks.
The Bar is better at long range where ST44 completely drops off , while the ST44 is around x117% at range 0. Its about x374% times better max range.
USA September patch discussion
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6 Sep 2019, 13:06 PM
#321
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The Bar is better at long range where ST44 completely drops off , while the ST44 is around x117% at range 0. Its about x374% times better max range.
6 Sep 2019, 13:09 PM
#322
Posts: 261
1 bar > 2 volks stg
I think this should be "1 Bar + 1 M1 > 2 Volks STG".
开弓没有回头箭。
6 Sep 2019, 13:10 PM
#323
Posts: 785
The Bar is better at long range where ST44 completely drops off , while the ST44 is around x117% at range 0. Its about x374% times better max range.
The STG is also 42% better at range 15. The comparison was and remains valid for the point being made.
6 Sep 2019, 13:16 PM
#324
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I think this should be "1 Bar + 1 M1 > 2 Volks STG".
VG ST44 should be scraped since they are good at all ranges or redesigned to be used in semi auto MOD giving them a profile of a "carbine" (around Garand level). Then they could be 5 of them.
As an timed ability costing MU one could add full auto mode.
6 Sep 2019, 13:17 PM
#325
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The STG is also 42% better at range 15. The comparison was and remains valid for the point being made.
It like saying an smg is as good as carbine. The weapon simply have different profiles and the comparison is misleading.
6 Sep 2019, 13:18 PM
#326
Posts: 785
It like saying an smg is as good as carbine. The weapon simply have different profiles and the comparison is misleading.
Do you consider the BAR overpowered or not?
6 Sep 2019, 13:41 PM
#327
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Do you consider the BAR overpowered or not?
Yes it is. Its long DPS is too high for a weapon that can be fired on the move.
6 Sep 2019, 13:50 PM
#328
Posts: 785
Yes it is. Its long DPS is too high for a weapon that can be fired on the move.
I'll take that in good faith and assume you feel the same about FG-42s and G43s.
In any case, why not just edit the moving stats? Like the absurd 0.1 cooldown modifier on the move could be made 0.5. Movement accuracy to 0.6. Etc.
Most people aren't constantly moving their infantry around.
6 Sep 2019, 13:52 PM
#329
Posts: 4474
??? g43 have no dps increase at long range tho like a bar do
I'll take that in good faith and assume you feel the same about FG-42s and G43s.
In any case, why not just edit the moving stats? Like the absurd 0.1 cooldown modifier on the move could be made 0.5. Movement accuracy to 0.6. Etc.
Most people aren't constantly moving their infantry around.
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Sep 2019, 13:55 PM
#330
Posts: 785
??? g43 have no dps increase at long range tho like a bar do
I have no idea what you're trying to say. BAR DPS doesn't increase into long range like a MG42 or a M1919. It's a downwards scale. You're right that G43 DPS doesn't increase at long range either, but it also doesn't decrease with movement accuracy, which was his point.
Are you sure you aren't confusing the BAR with the M1919 LMG?
6 Sep 2019, 13:59 PM
#331
Posts: 4474
no bar does increase long range dps tho u even posted it, not lmg lvl tho, gren g43 unlike bar don't increase long range dps it's either the same or lower (on pgreen is another story)
I have no idea what you're trying to say. BAR DPS doesn't increase into long range like a MG42 or a M1919. It's a downwards scale. You're right that G43 DPS doesn't increase at long range either, but it also doesn't decrease with movement accuracy, which was his point.
Are you sure you aren't confusing the BAR with the M1919 LMG?
for reference bar gives around 4 dps long range, a bren gives 7
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Sep 2019, 14:03 PM
#332
Posts: 785
no bar does increase long range dps tho u even posted it, not lmg lvl tho, gren g43 unlike bar don't increase long range dps it's either the same or lower (on pgreen is another story)
If you refer to the strange little uptick in DPS measured at the 35 range mark, I don't really think it's statistically relevant. BAR DPS as a rule is lower the further out you go, and I don't know how to explain the sudden uptick by looking at the stats. If I had to guess it has something weird to do with the burst duration.
Do you mean increase long range DPS compared to the base rifle? That is true, it does, but for the tech and 60 munitions I should think it would, and his issue with it was apparently with regards to movement accuracy, and that is an instance where any of the G43s are king.
6 Sep 2019, 15:18 PM
#333
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I'll take that in good faith and assume you feel the same about FG-42s and G43s.
In any case, why not just edit the moving stats? Like the absurd 0.1 cooldown modifier on the move could be made 0.5. Movement accuracy to 0.6. Etc.
Most people aren't constantly moving their infantry around.
G43 moving accuracy is too high but this is different subject and F42 is an "elite" weapon but imo it need to get a non linear curve and imo it should be limited to 1-2.
Point here is that BARs makes great at all Riflemen at all ranges and on the move. What I am suggesting is making the weapon good at MID range so that riflemen do not bully LMG grenadiers at far nor will get get bullied by PGs at mid, for a lower cost.
6 Sep 2019, 15:43 PM
#334
Posts: 607
Huh, I always thought BARs were stronger than that...
Thanks for posting the graph; I hadn't considered to compare the two before.
6 Sep 2019, 16:10 PM
#335
Posts: 2358
The STG is also 42% better at range 15. The comparison was and remains valid for the point being made.
Riflemen M1s are more effective at those ranges than volks kar98...
Bar as a weapon upgrade, it improves DPS at all ranges rather changing the whole squad profile
6 Sep 2019, 16:25 PM
#336
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Huh, I always thought BARs were stronger than that...
Thanks for posting the graph; I hadn't considered to compare the two before.
I agree with this. I'm kinda surprised at how poor pgrens perform ingame in comparison to BAR'd rifles (based on this graph). Maybe its the DPS drop off of 4 models vs 5 or because the BARs are retained until 2 models. Regardless I'd say this graph doesn't tell the whole story.
6 Sep 2019, 16:27 PM
#337
Posts: 785
Riflemen M1s are more effective at those ranges than volks kar98...
Bar as a weapon upgrade, it improves DPS at all ranges rather changing the whole squad profile
Both of these things are by design. Hence the lack of USF Obers or Pgrens. Am I to take it you have also joined the "Nerf BAR!" crowd or is this just a random factnote. My purpose of bringing up the stats was to compare the relative lethality of the BAR upgrade, not to ask for a nerf to any unit.
G43 moving accuracy is too high but this is different subject and F42 is an "elite" weapon but imo it need to get a non linear curve and imo it should be limited to 1-2.
Point here is that BARs makes great at all Riflemen at all ranges and on the move. What I am suggesting is making the weapon good at MID range so that riflemen do not bully LMG grenadiers at far nor will get get bullied by PGs at mid, for a lower cost.
With respect, this is pathetic reasoning. A single BAR is not going to overtake the DPS of a LMG gren squad in its proper range, and once you see double BARs it damned well better should overpower a 60mun 240MP investment. We've already nerfed USF IDF units and granted Grens a unique damage reduction bonus at vet 3, the rank by which you should be seeing double BARs anyway, if at all. This unit simply does not require any more babying.
6 Sep 2019, 16:28 PM
#338
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I agree with this. I'm kinda surprised at how poor pgrens perform ingame in comparison to BAR'd rifles (based on this graph). Maybe its the DPS drop off of 4 models vs 5 or because the BARs are retained until 2 models. Regardless I'd say this graph doesn't tell the whole story.
The DPS drop off is a big factor. Powerful weapons seem to become OP in 5+ squads (see VGs) while in 4 men squads is seem the drop off is allot.
On the other hand the comparison is rather misleading since the 2 weapons have completely different profiles.
6 Sep 2019, 16:46 PM
#339
Posts: 888
So now we're nerfing BARs? LOL.
6 Sep 2019, 17:01 PM
#340
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
With respect, this is pathetic reasoning. A single BAR is not going to overtake the DPS of a LMG gren squad in its proper range, and once you see double BARs it damned well better should overpower a 60mun 240MP investment. We've already nerfed USF IDF units and granted Grens a unique damage reduction bonus at vet 3, the rank by which you should be seeing double BARs anyway, if at all. This unit simply does not require any more babying.
You seem to underestimate relative positioning. If lmg Grenadiers lose easily at all ranges to BAR riflemen including max range they would be little reason to reposing ones units which leads to static play.
Riflemen should win at mid range and break even at max. That is why BARs should be cheaper and more mid focused oriented.
This change is in road Garand change took place making the unit better in close to mid range.
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