USA September patch discussion

You seem to underestimate relative positioning. If lmg Grenadiers lose easily at all ranges to BAR riflemen including max range they would be little reason to reposing ones units which leads to static play.

Riflemen should win at mid range and break even at max. That is why BARs should be cheaper and more mid focused oriented.

Well luckily for you, double BARs come out at about 4dps each at maximum range, and the LMG42 at 9dps.

3 M1 Garands will put out 5.1* DPS total.
3 K98s will put out 6.6 DPS total.

8+5.1 = 13.1*
9+6.6 = 15.6

Seems to me like you already have your wish, and there is no reason to nerf BARs.

I want to know, however, how you would expect long range static units like the LMG42 Grens to be countered if Riflemen and their BARs were to be nerfed to make them less competitive against them, considering the multiple nerfs to USF indirect and the durability buff Grens just received.

*correction edit
Note M1 Garands and Gren K98s more or less scale parallel to one another from range 15 on.
LMG42 has superior DPS from range 12 or so on.

Well luckily for you, double BARs come out at about 4dps each at maximum range, and the LMG42 at 9dps.

3 M1 Garands will put out 5.1* DPS total.
3 K98s will put out 6.6 DPS total.

8+5.1 = 13.1*
9+6.6 = 15.6

Seems to me like you already have your wish, and there is no reason to nerf BARs.

That is counting only DPS and not effective HP...Riflemen will probably win.

I want to know, however, how you would expect long range static units like the LMG42 Grens to be countered if Riflemen and their BARs were to be nerfed to make them less competitive against them, considering the multiple nerfs to USF indirect and the durability buff Grens just received.

*correction edit

USF are stronger in indirect....Actually Ostheer got hit the harder whit the mortar changes when their exceptional mortar become average.

And the answer is simply they would have to move mid range to win and not long range. The suggestion is not to nerf the BAR but to redesign it, to make more fitting for the aggressive USF play style instead of a static one.

You seem to underestimate relative positioning. If lmg Grenadiers lose easily at all ranges to BAR riflemen including max range they would be little reason to reposing ones units which leads to static play.

Riflemen should win at mid range and break even at max. That is why BARs should be cheaper and more mid focused oriented.

This change is in road Garand change took place making the unit better in close to mid range.

Cover wins engagements. It grants bonuses that often outweigh weapon upgrades. Cover is static and there is nothing wrong with it. There are tools to deal with static play for every faction. To me it just looks like you're trying to find an excuse to nerf BARs. BAR is the only non-doc method of making USF non-doc inf have good damage output at long range and they cost a lot of MU. Having to close in on your enemy is always putting you at a disadvantage as you are less accurate on the move and less likely to benefit from cover while moving so you will suffer model drops even before you start dealing damage. There is nothing bad with being able to fight from range after you invest 120 MU into a 280 MP unit.

...There is nothing bad with being able to fight from range after you invest 120 MU into a 280 MP unit.

No there is nothing "bad with being able to fight from range after you invest 120 MU into a 280 MP unit", there is something bad, however when can fight at all ranges from sort to long especially when you opponent can not do the same.

Again the suggestion is a redesign not a nerf.

That is counting only DPS and not effective HP...Riflemen will probably win.

I'm not so sure, but really what do you expect of a 280mp unit? It is not enough that Grens are better at range, but they must also be the clear victor versus a squad with 120munitions dumped into them?

Riflemen are already better at mid-range, something that we are finally seeing solidified with a buff that should push the point where Gren and Riflemen DPS meets (currently 10, which is basically short range), into something more like 12 or 13. Grens are already better at long range, which in this instance we can just say is everything past that point.

LMG42s, which require no sidetechs and no weapon rack trip, are already superior to an individual BAR, which requires its own sidetech and physically leaving the battlefield to equip, from range 12-13 on. At even longer ranges this DPS advantage remains true versus double BARs.

Literally nothing requires changing; try putting down sandbags or something to support your static grens if this is such a problem. Prepared positions should be the counter to the "aggressive" play you mention anyway. Grens also have the rifle grenade which should prevent the enemy from adopting this same cover-dependent strategy against you at range.

USF are stronger in indirect....Actually Ostheer got hit the harder whit the mortar changes when their exceptional mortar become average.

And the answer is simply they would have to move mid range to win and not long range. The suggestion is not to nerf the BAR but to redesign it, to make more fitting for the aggressive USF play style instead of a static one.

Ostheer mortar is statistically better than the USF one in every way, and generally considered better than the Soviet one, but because it isn't laser guided anymore it sucks now. Alright. We will pass over this idea.

The Pack Howie and the M8 Scott have both been nerfed substantially this patch, and Grens have received a 20% damage reduction at vet 3, something I have brought up several times with you now. If Ostheer suffered most when mortars got nerfed, it should definitely be said that USF got hit the most by the Grenadier buff, being the only allied faction without a sniper.

But you seem to have a fantastical idea of how infantry combat works in this game as well. If a USF player can move to mid range, (which we will generously define as range 15-20 here, the space of about 3.5-4 sandbags) compared to slugging it out at max range (which for the purposes of this post we'll just say is anything past range 20), he will generally do so, because that is already the range at which his Riflemen approach individual superiority to Grenadiers, regardless of theorycraft scenario where a Riflemen squad with double BARs beats a Gren squad in a static trade at range 30. More often than not, however, the Ostheer player is not a total retard, and has HMG42s on the field to prevent this very thing from occurring.

We keep seeing more and more indirect nerfs when this is the obvious counter to this playstyle, and now you want to benefit it even further, and I can't honestly see how you believe this is a healthy road for the game to travel down. Whether ostheer indirect fire sucks too is a moot point considering the playstyle IDF weapons typically counter is mostly employed by their own faction.

No there is nothing "bad with being able to fight from range after you invest 120 MU into a 280 MP unit", there is something bad, however when can fight at all ranges from sort to long especially when you opponent can not do the same.

But other factions have snipers, mgs, and good mortars. The game is so close to being balanced in 1's; I don't think nerfing rifles without reworking usf is going to work.

I think the real issue is how effective blobs are. Coh feels like a ww1 rts sometimes.

I think the real issue is how effective blobs are. Coh feels like a ww1 rts sometimes.

Thats because a bunch of crybabies who are not content when tanks blow squads up. If you see someone crying for Sherman,T-34,P4 too good vs infantry that dude is a blobber. I wonder what would happen if every tank chrushed like T-34, sniped like P4 and blew things up like Sherman. I guess blobbing would be a retarded idea.

I'm not so sure, but really what do you expect of a 280mp unit?...

Then I should expect from a 340 T2 unit like PGs vs a 280 T0 unit like riflemen to beat them even at max range. Well they do not. The have to close to mid.

Ostheer mortar is statistically better than the USF one in every way, and generally considered better than the Soviet one, but because it isn't laser guided anymore it sucks now. Alright. We will pass over this idea.

Read my post again Ostheer mortar went from exceptional to average (ok it marginally better) that means that USF mortar actually relatively buffed. The mortar changes where a nerf to Ostheer. This is a simple fact.

But you seem to have a fantastical idea of how infantry combat works in this game as well.....

I can not take credit for the idea behind weapon profiles and relative positioning. The idea belong to Relic.

My apologies if English is not your first language, but you are completely ignoring the vast majority of post, which already answers basically every response you have made here. I have underlined these passages to help clarify things.

Then I should expect from a 340 T2 unit like PGs vs a 280 T0 unit like riflemen to beat them even at max range. Well they do not. The have to close to mid.

"I'm not so sure, but really what do you expect of a 280mp unit? It is not enough that Grens are better at range, but they must also be the clear victor versus a squad with 120munitions dumped into them?

Riflemen are already better at mid-range, something that we are finally seeing solidified with a buff that should push the point where Gren and Riflemen DPS meets (currently 10, which is basically short range), into something more like 12 or 13. Grens are already better at long range, which in this instance we can just say is everything past that point.

LMG42s, which require no sidetechs and no weapon rack trip, are already superior to an individual BAR, which requires its own sidetech and physically leaving the battlefield to equip, from range 12-13 on. At even longer ranges this DPS advantage remains true versus double BARs.

Literally nothing requires changing; try putting down sandbags or something to support your static grens if this is such a problem. Prepared positions should be the counter to the "aggressive" play you mention anyway. Grens also have the rifle grenade which should prevent the enemy from adopting this same cover-dependent strategy against you at range."

Read my post again Ostheer mortar went from exceptional to average (ok it marginally better) that means that USF mortar actually relatively buffed. The mortar changes where a nerf to Ostheer. This is a simple fact.

It's brazen of you to tell me to read your post when you have gone out of your way to ignore basically all of mine.

"...More often than not, however, the Ostheer player is not a total retard, and has HMG42s on the field to prevent this very thing from occurring.

We keep seeing more and more indirect nerfs when this is the obvious counter to this playstyle, and now you want to benefit it even further, and I can't honestly see how you believe this is a healthy road for the game to travel down. Whether ostheer indirect fire sucks too is a moot point considering the playstyle IDF weapons typically counter is mostly employed by their own faction."

In plain English: Mortars counter "static infantry and structures". By your own standards, this is the standard operating procedure for LMG Grens (and all of Ostheer's excellent team weapons, probably the best available in the game). You also yourself state that this is not the typical USF playstyle. Therefore strong indirect fire units most benefit factions fighting against Ostheer, and not Ostheer itself in any case.

I can not take credit for the idea behind weapon profiles and relative positioning. The idea belong to Relic.

"But you seem to have a fantastical idea of how infantry combat works in this game as well. If a USF player can move to mid range, (which we will generously define as range 15-20 here, the space of about 3.5-4 sandbags) compared to slugging it out at max range (which for the purposes of this post we'll just say is anything past range 20), he will generally do so, because that is already the range at which his Riflemen approach individual superiority to Grenadiers, regardless of theorycraft scenario where a Riflemen squad with double BARs beats a Gren squad in a static trade at range 30. More often than not, however, the Ostheer player is not a total retard, and has HMG42s on the field to prevent this very thing from occurring."

I am very prone to frustration when it comes to repeating my own points, and would like not to have to do so again.

-Assault Rifles can have their long range DPS nerf and adjust in other parts.
-WFA and UKF had been gradually been nerfed so they don't outscale so much in comparison to EFA and given buff and access to other tools to compensate.


But this will be topic for future patches, waiting for the results of the current one.

My apologies if English is not your first language, but you are completely ignoring the vast majority of post, which already answers basically every response you have made here. I have underlined these passages to help clarify things.
.....

Your apologies is accepted. Yet you have not answered any of my point. As I simply pointed out to you the fact that if an infatry is a heavier investment in MP (and MU) does not automatically mean it will win vs another at all rangers. (for more see my Pg example and I can provide more for you) The infatry are generally designed to excel at certain ranges.

And again the nerf to mortars affected Ostheer who relied more to support weapons. A direct result is that game is now more about brute force than about support weapons.

I am very prone to frustration when it comes to repeating my own points, and would like not to have to do so again.

Try to avoid frustration.

Your apologies is accepted. Yet you have not answered any of my point. As I simply pointed out to you the fact that if an infatry is a heavier investment in MP (and MU) does not automatically mean it will win vs another at all rangers. (for more see my Pg example and I can provide more for you) The infatry are generally designed to excel at certain ranges.

I cannot put this in simpler terms. Please try to understand.

Right now (at the present time, today)
Grens > Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens > Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens > BAR Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens STILL > Double BAR Riflemen at long range

Munitions make unit BETTER. After 120 munitions, still lower DPS at long range than 60muni LMG Gren. No balance issue. Theorycraft long range battle between isolated double BAR rifles and LMG Grens behind no cover not realistic and still favors LMG Grens on paper.

And again the nerf to mortars affected Ostheer who relied more to support weapons. A direct result is that game is now more about brute force than about support weapons.

Ostheer weapon team NO MOVE
LMG Grens NO MOVE
Mortar counter NO MOVE units
Ostheer BEST weapon teams, LMG Grens who NO MOVE
Need mortar to counter NO MOVE units.
Ostheer BEST mortar
Other faction mortars NOT AS GOOD = counter NO MOVE units less effectively

Try to avoid frustration.

Read more carefully and we will.

I cannot put this in simpler terms. Please try to understand.

Right now (at the present time, today)
Grens > Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens > Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens > BAR Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens STILL > Double BAR Riflemen at long range
...

Pls test your last claim in the range map and come back with the results you might be surprised.

Pls test your last claim in the range map and come back with the results you might be surprised.

Do it yourself. I've given stats, I've rebutted every dumb thing you've said, and all you've done is ignore everything I've put out - I don't see why you wouldn't just ignore that too.

Do it yourself. I've given stats, I've rebutted every dumb thing you've said, and all you've done is ignore everything I've put out - I don't see why you wouldn't just ignore that too.

So what you're saying is OST is undefeatable. Why doesn't that play out ingame?

So what you're saying is OST is undefeatable. Why doesn't that play out ingame?

In what universe?

CLAIM: Riflemen beat Grens at long range and the BAR is OP.
POSITION: FALSE, and I've beat that one to death already. Read any of my goddamned posts.

CLAIM: Indirect fire nerfs have hurt Ostheer more than anybody else
POSITION: FALSE, indirect fire is designed SPECIFICALLY to counter the form of play that OSTHEER falls into. General IDF nerfs, particularly ones that happen to still leave Ostheer with the best mortar, do NOT harm Ostheer more than any other faction, and this claim is absurd no matter how you look at it.

I have not demanded any nerfs of any sort.
Read
My
Posts

If anything the dominant position being argued here by Vipper is that USF Riflemen are unbeatable at any range, and the fact my criticism of this position is seen as an attack on Ostheer by the director of moderation is fucking absurd

I cannot put this in simpler terms. Please try to understand.

Right now (at the present time, today)
Grens > Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens > Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens > BAR Riflemen at long range
LMG Grens STILL > Double BAR Riflemen at long range

Munitions make unit BETTER. After 120 munitions, still lower DPS at long range than 60muni LMG Gren. No balance issue. Theorycraft long range battle between isolated double BAR rifles and LMG Grens behind no cover not realistic and still favors LMG Grens on paper.



Ostheer weapon team NO MOVE
LMG Grens NO MOVE
Mortar counter NO MOVE units
Ostheer BEST weapon teams, LMG Grens who NO MOVE
Need mortar to counter NO MOVE units.
Ostheer BEST mortar
Other faction mortars NOT AS GOOD = counter NO MOVE units less effectively



Read more carefully and we will.

Sorry the NO MOVE comes off as "They don't move and beat 2x BAR rifles." Don't get snippy with me.

So what you're saying is OST is undefeatable. Why doesn't that play out ingame?

I haven't seen anywhere that Mazianni claimed that OST is undefeatable. You're the one twisting his words and getting snippy. Most of us expect Vipper to go full retard. We don't expect the Director of Moderation to join him. You really ought to step away from the keyboard for awhile.

Ostheer has multiple ways in dealings with USF.

They have assault grens,5 man grens, snipers, mgs, pgrens, and g43s
The recent buffs means ostheer can fight any faction in 1v1. The whole ostheer up is outdated.

I agree with this. I'm kinda surprised at how poor pgrens perform ingame in comparison to BAR'd rifles (based on this graph). Maybe its the DPS drop off of 4 models vs 5 or because the BARs are retained until 2 models. Regardless I'd say this graph doesn't tell the whole story.

Of course it doesn't, but even in an apples-to-oranges comparison I was expecting the BAR to have higher DPS across the board from a pgren STG, and for the margin to be larger.