German sniper survivability

I play only team games (95% 2v2) and I since the last MG nerf I stopped usings those and tried to incorporate a sniper to my BO. Most Soviets nowdays skip the Clown car with snipers so german sniper is hard to kill in early game (ofc with you have to babysit him and micro all the time). He also is very good in mid-late game simply cuz MGs now cant stop vetted Soviets infantry (or unvetted Shocks) but he can slowly weaken them and grens have a chance to finish the job.
German snipers vet1 ability is a bit tricky (btw you have to kill around 30 cons to reach vet 1 if I remember correctly) cuz it always shocks the target but sometimes it also kill 4 guys in one shot. So far good but the problem I got is that german sniper is nearly impossible to keep alive cuz he will get one shotted by:

• mortar shot, esp. the 120mm one and it hasnt to be even close
  
• Guards PTRS rifle (it has huge range so their guns cant hurt you but antitank rifle kill you)
  
• Zis gun (Im talking about normal shot, not a barrage)
  
• Su-85
  
• Katy barrage
  

All of these cant be dodged so there is no skill or micro involved. What I am asking for is more HP (more armor is imho useless) so he wont die by one random shot everytime I use him to do his job but instead he will got wounded (badly) but there will still be room to retreat and heal in base (as Soviets snipers). What do you guys think?

Ost Sniper should have 80hp (model normal) to offset Sovs capacity to reinforce the unit and to improve survival od the sole model vs incidental AoE, as you pointed out.

The increased RoF related to range is also retarded and should be the inverse of what it currently is, meaning it shoots faster at longer ranges, and slower at close.

The increased RoF related to range is also retarded and should be the inverse of what it currently is, meaning it shoots faster at longer ranges, and slower at close.

Thx for reminding me. The RoF at long range is absurd. It is not possible to snipe the Zis crew for example if he is reinforcing from M5 (most of the time sniper will get one shotted by Zis anyway).

I think in one of the last balance casts, PQ (or was it someone else?) said that they weren't completely happy with snipers so maybe there will be changes. But maybe I just dreamed that

Overall, I think the use of snipers has already increased and now that the Soviet ones have the same rate of countersniping/MP drain, it isn't countered that easily. The camo is good but you need to move every 1-2 steps or else a precision mortar strike will ruin your day.
The low HP without a second model is extremely weak to AoE damage and giving him 2 armor doesn't offset that because armor only works vs. small arms and because it is random, which means that sometimes he takes several shots without any damage and sometimes he just dies instantly. But people have been saying for ages that 40 hp simply isn't enough.

Yep, low health means he gets sniped by all manner of things that shouldn't, SU-85s being a particular culprit. Going from 40 to 80 hp would be a big improvement imo, insulating him from near misses, while he'd still die to a precision strike or something.

I think the German sniper needs a smoke bomb. He throws it onto the ground, does a manic laugh and disappears.

Yep, low health means he gets sniped by all manner of things that shouldn't, SU-85s being a particular culprit. Going from 40 to 80 hp would be a big improvement imo, insulating him from near misses, while he'd still die to a precision strike or something.

I've always been in favor of a health increase as long as they adjust the armor value so it's not harder to kill it with small arms.

At 80hp and 2 armor it would be fine.

By comparison a single Shock Troop has 80hp and 2.25 armor.

Be serious, man. Its a single model unit for Flak's sake...

If they would increase German Snipers HP and armour then they should remove the ability to go from cover to cover while being in stealth.

If they would increase German Snipers HP and armour then they should remove the ability to go from cover to cover while being in stealth.

Nobody has proposed or endorsed an armor increase.

Even with the hp upgrade, howver, Immagainst soing anything to the stealth.

Its a single model. It is vulnerable to a wipe in ways nothing else is.
There is a huge difference in the relstionship of 1 to 0, and 2 to 0.

Just as a spontaneous example, a flare mine will WIPE an Ost Sniper. Consider the ramifications of that.

I thought armour increase was proposed. My bad.

Because Soviet Sniper squad is more robust they don't go into stealth at the same rate as German counterpart. If you want increase its HP pool than change to its stealth mechanics is required otherwise the unit would be as robust as Soviet Sniper and without its downside.
I don't see this as a good thing.

I think that Snipers are fine as they are right now and from experience when they die it's down to the user's error rather than unit being flawed. People tend to overextend or don't micro correctly.

The increased hp merely equalises their survival, asymmetrically.
Its not a "buff", its bringing it to where it should be.

The "downside" still exists, because if Ost loses that one model, its over.

You sre operating under the premise that Ost and Sov Sniper survival is equal, it isnt.
Not until Ost has 80 hp.

The "downside" is that Ost loses the unit if it loses that one model, whereas Sovs "upside" is having two models. In order to balance this, Ost still needs the Stealth difference, or ost has no "upside".

Survival is equal at 40+40hp at 1 armor vs 80hp at 2 armor.
"Downsides/upsides" is equal at 2 less stealthed models to retreat vs 1 better stealthed model to hide.

I thought armour increase was proposed. My bad.

Because Soviet Sniper squad is more robust they don't go into stealth at the same rate as German counterpart. If you want increase its HP pool than change to its stealth mechanics is required otherwise the unit would be as robust as Soviet Sniper and without its downside.
I don't see this as a good thing.

I think that Snipers are fine as they are right now and from experience when they die it's down to the user's error rather than unit being flawed. People tend to overextend or don't micro correctly.

With the armour being the same, the German sniper would still be less survivable than a single shock troop model. Having 2 men with 40 hp is still going to be more survivable than one with 80 HP, just because direct mine hits, mortar hits, tank shells, sniper shot etc will always kill the Ost sniper but not always catch both Russian sniper models, and the Russian sniper also doesn't have to deal with Oorah.

Not saying they shouldn't take a look at the armour if it does turn out to be too survivable after an HP adjustment, but I'd be surprised if it made the Ostheer sniper much more attractive than the Soviet one.

soviet snipers also die to 1 mortar fire, and many other stuff.

soviet snipers also die to 1 mortar fire, and many other stuff.

Sometimes, but not invariably as the Ostheer sniper does. It's fairly rare for one tank shell to kill both Soviet snipers in my experience. Mortars do somewhat more frequently but only if it's a direct hit.

Soviet snipers become really survivable when the squad cohesion glitches out and the spotter stands like 50 meters back from the sniper. Guaranteed indirect fire protection all day.

also Soviet snipers gain sprint after vet. so many times i try to flank a soviet sniper team it just sprint away to their friendly force and turn around snipe my infantry squad. german sniper can't do that either

Soviet snipers become really survivable when the squad cohesion glitches out and the spotter stands like 50 meters back from the sniper. Guaranteed indirect fire protection all day.

Their survival also scales better, since the armor of each model is increased.

Resulting at Vet3 in 2x2.25 armor models, as opposed to one 4 armor model for Ost.

I've been thinking this a lot and in my opinion one solution that could work is that Ostheer sniper gets Oorah like ability at vet0 costing munitions.

This way it would be an unit that rewards good micro. It would also make countersniping Soviet snipers easier aswell as avoiding getting sniped.

For Soviet vet1 ability, I have no idea what that could be then.

That being said, I don't want Coh2 to go back to sniper centric play that Coh1 was. Snipers annoy the hell out of me already in Coh2 if used well.

I agree that the German sniper should have his HP bumped to 80. But also reduce his armor back to 1. This way he is more resilient against AOE, the same vs small arms.

He is currently already VERY powerful in the metagame. I build one every game as germans. Got 65 kills once.