Jackson - jast light version of the Panther :)

What bonuses are we talking about? Again about the HVAP, aren't you tired? But I'm tired

No, specifically the tricks you can do using the vehicle crews:
Getting out and self-repairing the tank
Getting out and drastically lowering the pop-cap used by the tank (and then get in to exceed 100-cap)
Getting out during a fight, causing the panther to NOT target the empty vehicle (requires manual targeting by the axis player)

Panther on average is better in other respects.
Speed - 6.6 | Acceleration - 2.4 (3.1 vet3) | Rotate 30 (36 vet3) | Accuracy far: 0.35 | (0.44 vet5) | Reload duration 5.2 - 5.6 (3.64 - 3.92 vet3) (2.55 - 2.74 vet5)
Jackson:
Speed - 6.5 Acceleration - 3 | Rotate 30 | Accuracy far: 0.35 (0.46 vet3) Reload duration 4.38 - 4.97 (2.98 - 3.38 vet3)

Not sure how your color coding works... Regardless:

Speed - correct
6.6 vs. 6.5 is under a 2% difference, especially considering you're very rarely going in a straight line all the time, that said, I guess the panther is technically faster.

Acceleration - correct for OKW / incorrect for OST
2.4 vs. 3 acceleration is a massive difference (25%!), so that's a significant advantage for the M36, allowing it to get away easily in most cases. Your Vet 3 acceleration is only true for OKW (3.12), for OST it's only a +10%, so 2.64, which is still ~14% slower

Rotation - correct
I can't find stats for this right now, but it's probably correct

Accuracy - incorrect
Neither the OKW or OST versions gain accuracy at vet 3
The OKW Vet 5 +25% accuracy is only for the on the move modifier, which I believe brings it's moving accuracy to 0.625. Note, however, that the Vet 5 sight radius only applies when stationary, so they're mutually exclusive. I'm not sure how OKW's Vet 4 "-25% scatter" works, exactly, so I haven't factored that in.

The +30% accuracy at for the M36, however, does apply to the stationary stat, but is at Vet 2, not vet 3.

Reload - incorrect
OKW Panther does not get improved reloading at Vet 5, only the -30% at Vet 3. Ost does get -30% at vet 3, though, bringing both to 5.2/5.6 vet 0 and 3.64/3.92 at vet3

The M36 gains a -20% reload bonus at vet 2 and a -15% bonus at vet 3, bringing it to 4.375/4.975 vet 0, 3.5/3.98 vet 2, 2.975/3.383 vet 3


So in the end, for those stats, the M36 accelerates faster (except vs. vet 3 OKW panthers), is more accurate, fires much faster and with more range.

At 1-3 vets, Jackson's penetration increase significantly. But this is still not enough against Jagdtiger. But the panther also gets more armor. Sherman E8 (Rifle Company) did not just penetrate Panther vet1 (Standart Army) many times. And again, Jackson was needed.

Nothing is enough to consistently pen the JT from the front - that's by design. I've explained numerous times that there's no intended way to do this. You're supposed to flank, immobilize or use off-map. It's an incredibly slow vehicle with no turret vs. a fast vehicle with a turret. It's the same for the elephant.

It's also important to note that the panther does not gain armor at vet 3 - this bonus was removed from both OKW and OST variants, meaning that at vet 3 the M36 will allays penetrate at every range (286 pen > 260 front armor), and that's without HVAP.

Edit: I miss-read the patch notes, as pointed out by SkysTheLimit. The +10% Armor bonus is now at vet 2 for both OKW/OST. This puts both panthers at 286 armor, which gives the M36 a ~77% chance to penetrate at vet 0, and a 100% penetration chance at vet 3, without HVAP.

The price difference I have already wrote (1 page). And this is ridiculous compared to the difference in armor and health.

Only the fuel cost in comparison to armor/HP - not the entire unit.

So:
490mp/185f/18 pop (OKW/Ost panther)
vs.
400mp/140f/14 pop (and you can get out to lower the pop further)

So that's 18% more MP, 25% more fuel, 23% more pop in exchange for:

+100% frontal armor (+120% OKW/Ost vet 2)
+50% rear armor (+65% OKW/Ost vet 2)
+50% HP
+2% top speed
0% rotation (+20% OKW/OST Vet 3)
0% accuracy (-30% M36 vet 2)
0% penertation (-30% M36 Vet 3)
-10 range (-5 OKW Vet 4)
-25% acceleration (-14% OST Vet 3, +4% OKW Vet 3)
-50% moving accuracy (-20% OKW Vet 5)
-16%/-12% reload speed (-18%/-14% vet 3 vs. vet 3)

And, as I pointed out before, that 260/90 286/99 armor can be penetrated 100% of the time at any range by a vet 3 M36, or ~77% at vet 0, which makes the +100%/+50% armor almost pointless (in a 1v1, M36 vs. Panther scenario).

So +50%HP and +2% movement for all that those downsides, and more cost.

Again subjective opinion. I don't need your advice, I can give you advice against Jackson too.

Moving accuracy is a must. Jackson cannot stand against panther and tigers, it has 100% less armor and 50% health. Jackson must always be on the move in order to survive. I remind you of this many times.

JagdTiger tooltip, in game:

The Jagdtiger or 'Hunting Tiger' is one of the most powerful tank destroyers on any battlefield. Its extremely potent 128mm PaK 44 main gun can destroy any enemy tank while armor up to 250mm thick keeps the Jagdtiger on the front lines. Its poor maneuverability is its Achilles' heel. Effective against all vehicles, defenses and structures.

Elefant tooltip, in game:

Allows the Elefant Tank Destroyer to be called onto the battlefield. This behemoth has devastating range, firepower, and virtually impenetrable front armor. However, it’s lack of turret and slow speed make it vulnerable to flanking maneuvers.

KingTiger tooltip, in game:

The "King Tiger" is a massive Heavy Tank with unparalleled armor and firepower. It requires all sWs Half-tracks be deployed into structures. An option to deploy it will then become available. Like all Heavy Tanks, it is susceptible to flanking due to slow turn speed and turret rotation.

And yes, the M36 can't stand still vs. a Panther, that's why it has +10 range and +25% acceleration; use that to keep out of it's range, and use your lower cost to out-produce. Tigers are even easier, since they're slower.

It's also important to note that the panther does not gain armor at vet 3 - this bonus was removed from both OKW and OST variants, meaning that at vet 3 the M36 will allays penetrate at every range (286 pen > 260 front armor), and that's without HVAP.

Ost/OKW panthers still get +10% armor at vet 2

And, as I pointed out before, that 260/90 armor can be penetrated 100% of the time at any range by a vet 3 M36, or ~85% at vet 0, which makes the +100%/+50% armor pointless.

It makes it "pointless" against the Jackson, which is a tank destroyer. That's why it also gets 960 health to start now instead of 800. The armor is far from pointless against the numerous mediums the allies have

Ost/OKW panthers still get +10% armor at vet 2

It makes it "pointless" against the Jackson, which is a tank destroyer. That's why it also gets 960 health to start now instead of 800. The armor is far from pointless against the numerous mediums the allies have

Double checked the patch notes - you're right. I somehow missed, likely because it was removed in post #140, then added back in #143. When it was re-added, it also replaced the HP vet bonuses, too. I'll update my previous post.

As for the armor, I'm aware it helps vs. a ton of other things, but this is purely in an M36 vs. Panther scenario.

As for the armor, I'm aware it helps vs. a ton of other things, but this is purely in an M36 vs. Panther scenario.

Right and my point is that scenario doesnt show us much

The Jackson should be effective against panthers, that's literally its primary target. It doesnt cost as much as the panther because you have to run the other direction if infantry show up

Now I think the Jackson is worth more than 140 fuel, but its performance against panthers is just a unit working as intended in my opinion

At 1-3 vets, Jackson's penetration increase significantly. But this is still not enough against Jagdtiger. But the panther also gets more armor.

OP is about jacksons vs panther, but now its about jackson vs Jagtiger?

U can actually beat a jt or elefant with a t 70 , u just move it behind it

Jackson is mobile enough to not need the high movin accu ...like everybody will tell you how to play the panther: stop and shot..move...stop and shot.

its should exactly work like this on jackson.

and not driving around like a gocart and hit the most shoots on maximum speed.

Edit: the most shiny on the jackson is : you can spam them and can run around with them like a wolfpack. Due to their high mobilty, high speed turret and moving accu no problem with 3-4 jackson.

Try this with 3-4 stugs, jp4, su85 etc....they will clash togehter everytime they want to shot on something beecause hte has no turret and dance around like young john travolta.

they will block each other driving path and will die will easily.

jackson can easily driving around with high mobilty and turret its no problem to blobb them. no risk ...high rewards

Jackson is mobile enough to not need the high movin accu ...like everybody will tell you how to play the panther: stop and shot..move...stop and shot.

I like the irony and painful double standard you employ here, because you know.... panther is mobile enough to not need any high moving accuracy, especially since vet1 onward.

its should exactly work like this on jackson.

I am too for reducing panthers health by 33% and armor by 50% and removing these MGs, glad you've finally seen da way.

Super OP extra mobile jackson:
Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3 Rotate: 30

Slow and sluggish panther with bad mobility:
Speed: 6.6 Accel: 2.4 Rotate: 30 +blitz

I like the irony and painful double standard you employ here, because you know.... panther is mobile enough to not need any high moving accuracy, especially since vet1 onward.


I am too for reducing panthers health by 33% and armor by 50% and removing these MGs, glad you've finally seen da way.

Super OP extra mobile jackson:
Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3 Rotate: 30

Slow and sluggish panther with bad mobility:
Speed: 6.6 Accel: 2.4 Rotate: 30 +blitz

when you remove the 24% extra paycosts from panther and add +10 range and .25 moving accurrys..why not?

I like the irony and painful double standard you employ here, because you know.... panther is mobile enough to not need any high moving accuracy, especially since vet1 onward.


I am too for reducing panthers health by 33% and armor by 50% and removing these MGs, glad you've finally seen da way.

Super OP extra mobile jackson:
Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3 Rotate: 30

Slow and sluggish panther with bad mobility:
Speed: 6.6 Accel: 2.4 Rotate: 30 +blitz

just make the panther a Jackson clone, see how long until people cry

What will people use to counter it ? Ff ? Nope too slow , su 85? Nope too slow and can be easily flanked, medium tanks ? Only the Sherman might actually pose a problem as it’s accurate on the move but it has longer reload if I’m not wrong so nope again, at inf ? If panzer shrek can’t do it how can the zook do it ?

just make the panther a Jackson clone, see how long until people cry

What will people use to counter it ? Ff ? Nope too slow , su 85? Nope too slow and can be easily flanked, medium tanks ? Only the Sherman might actually pose a problem as it’s accurate on the move but it has longer reload if I’m not wrong so nope again, at inf ? If panzer shrek can’t do it how can the zook do it ?

Oh they will cry alright, but it'll still be axis players, who now will be rolled over by allied infantry that doesn't even need to bother about being threatened by a tank, because axis are now spamming useless TD(context: tank destroyers are bad against infantry, I know i need to put that adnotation here, because I want all of us around to understand the context here without overheating their brains) instead of getting a unit that's actually needed and any other unit will still be countered by allied TDs, unless you're going to put your right next to the vehicle you want to use as leaving it behind will do you a whooping nadda as it'll still be out of range.

Build brumbar/ostwind/obers ——>build Jackson——> ?????———> profit

I showed the numbers, skipped only one point related to accuracy in movement. At the expense of magical HPAV, I also explained. Objectively, there can be no complaints against Jackson when you have the Panther and the Tigers. And you just brought your subjective opinion, for example, "panthers should be more than enough to take out allied heavies reliably and effectively, with doesnt happen."

No, its happen. I dont agree. Panthers easily destroy usf medium and even "heavy" pershing tank. Panthers can push your line, destroy your tanks and go back. This because of high armor and health. Jacksons can't this. They will be quickly destroyed. Especially when an hidden Raketenwerfer is ambushed. With such a massive offensive, armor and health already play a role, and not the accuracy of movement. What was demonstrated at the 2v2 masters cup.

We can debate for a very long time. Therefore, I gave the numbers and percentages.

Uhhhhh

Do you think colouring your argument makes it more true?

Jackson <> Panther trade would i choose everyday. why need a panther when you have the best nondoch TD ingame and blobb them up to counter easily evry armor with low risks?

Panther isnt bad..but jackson is the better option to counter armor. for AI you have better options as axis than a panther.

god..i would love it...

Jackson <> Panther trade would i choose everyday. why need a panther when you have the best nondoch TD ingame and blobb them up to counter easily evry armor with low risks?

Because now you are facing opponent who doesn't need to build tanks and has plenty of resources for indirect fire and will roll you over silly with superior infantry force, while you're spamming TDs and preparing for heavy tank that'll never come, because now there is no super tank that counters all other tanks who aren't 60 range TDs and bleeds infantry significantly over time.

Panther isnt bad..but jackson is the better option to counter armor. for AI you have better options as axis than a panther.

Incorrect.
There is nothing that jackson counters that panther can't.
But panther isn't meant to counter tank destroyers, so your only argument you're clinging to is invalidated by principle of balance.

god..i would love it...

Play allies then?
It won't force you to take off that german uniform for games.

Because now you are facing opponent who doesn't need to build tanks and has plenty of resources for indirect fire and will roll you over silly with superior infantry force, while you're spamming TDs and preparing for heavy tank that'll never come, because now there is no super tank that counters all other tanks who aren't 60 range TDs and bleeds infantry significantly over time.


Incorrect.
There is nothing that jackson counters that panther can't.
But panther isn't meant to counter tank destroyers, so your only argument you're clinging to is invalidated by principle of balance.


Play allies then?
It won't force you to take off that german uniform for games.

I like the way you think. Like my 2 year old naive daughter.
You dont need only jackson to counter panthers. they are great against every armor.

Because now you are facing opponent who doesn't need to build tanks and has plenty of resources for indirect fire and will roll you over silly with superior infantry force, while you're spamming TDs and preparing for heavy tank that'll never come, because now there is no super tank that counters all other tanks who aren't 60 range TDs and bleeds infantry significantly over time.

Incorrect.
As USF you get infantry units for teching. Usually you can have a tank and equal number of strong infantry units on the field with lots off useful abilities. If you lost some of them you will lose the game probably because of that, not because of some imbalance, sadly very often players blame units that seal the deal for being too strong rather than realising that some units they lost 5 or 10 minutes earlier cost them the game.

Incorrect.
There is nothing that jackson counters that panther can't.
But panther isn't meant to counter tank destroyers, so your only argument you're clinging to is invalidated by principle of balance.

Incorrect. Panther doesn't counter infantry. It is a costly tank destroyer with inferior range and more armour. So, if it can't close on the jackson it will lose. If jackson has no support panther will win. In real game situations range is usually preferred as both sides have lots of support and closing on is more risky due to snares, mines, hand hel at, at guns, flankin mediums etc.

Play allies then?
It won't force you to take off that german uniform for games.

Incorrect. You should suggest that to allied players to realise how difficult it is to play against units with superior range that accelerate more quickly, back off, quickly repair and continue dealing dmg. Their effective health pool is simply higher. I play all factions and have better results as allies, especially with UK. Generally it is easier to play with allies.

LOL if any tank takes less micro it is the panther. Especially with things in docts giving it forgive me smoke, and backwards super blitz. I cannot think of ANY tank in the game that is more forgiving than the panther as far as not paying for mistakes. Too much hp, armor, speed it literally has 9 lives and the command panther has 14 lives.

Also i probably literally have THOUSANDS more games than you in 2v2, You see the elephant or jagd in about half of all 2v2s i play. Maybe a little less now that fusilers and tiger doct is used a lot but not that much. They also gave fusilers with jagdtiger shrek options which was about the dumbest thing in the world when they already gave jagd AI shells and never decreased its range like the elephant so it can counter the 17 pdr which is retarded as well as nuke infantry.

Yes because I cannot afford to equip all my infantry with zooks, that is about the dumbest thing ive heard that way I have 0 AI maybe axis infantry an mg will let me just walk past them. For usf to be able to fight okw infantry especially rifles they have to have double bars.

That being said with out the jackson in its current state USF or a team with USF would get screwed almost every 2v2. Brumbar would also screw USF and it already does that well with current jackson in 2v2.

The reason you see panther spam in late game sometimes is because it can be more effective rushing allied TDs with if done right.

And just so you know in 2v2 whats more hilarious is usually if me and my partner manage to take out a jagd or elephant. Another one pops right out and your back to square one. Ive also seen ost many times able to field an elephant and a panther at the same time.

1.yes because u have to go in and risk somethng. With 60 range TD and any inf that gives sight. you just have to go little bit back and fourth... very micro intensive

2.your opinion

3. Yes there are 2 Buttons one for "equip all Inf with zooks" and one for "equip all inf with Bars"

4. the Brumbar... yes i know i hurts when u blobb and a brum smashes noob moves.( stop blobbing ;-))
maybe u go also for paks and mines or .. zooks but i know US has only 1 AT option and that is the jackson.

5. Nope the reason is that all mediums get buttfuc... by the jacksons. Panther is the only stock Tank that have a fair chance.

6.Oh no 2 Tanks ...at the same Time ! HOLD ON ! why we allow that!

so i think ur one of thoose who just want an A blobb move tactic style.
average US player : " i want the best inf and the best Tanks... tactics and combiend arms are for loosers1!1!1!!!"

maybe u just play some ost and okw ... it helps maybe

+1

I like the way you think. Like my 2 year old naive daughter.

That's because I want to talk in a way even you would understand. It does take some effort.

You dont need only jackson to counter panthers. they are great against every armor.

And you don't need only panthers to counter allied armor, jackson included.
You have ATGs and AT infantry too, high time you stop suiciding them at opponents army the moment you unlock panther and actually use them to support it instead of leaving behind a flood of tears complaining on how panther isn't an ultimate answer to everything and anything that doesn't move on legs.